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Interesting Demos on the whole are similar (wonder how the 5 counties in SE PA would match though, that is nearly half of all PAs population in about 1/40th the land area), maybe it is what I know best but to me PA feels and looks FAR more similar to MD, NJ, or NY than it does to OH. But then again I have the perspective of someone who has lived on the eatern part of PA
Maybe it is just me but I have personally never felt very much similarity or affiliation with OH relative to most east coast states
the five counties of SE PA are 1/3 of the state's population, not 1/2.
^^^This is where I call bs, because hardly anything you stated could be deemed as fact...
I'll agree that extrem South Central/South East PA are very similar to Maryland; I essentially said the same thing. However, once you hit York, or once you pass Gettysburg on 15 going north, you are most definitely in PA. South of these areas is farmland and of course the states blend into each other; ALL states resemble their neighbors around the borders. And again, Philly and Baltimore probably mirror each other, I wont deny that. But it becomes noticeably different as soon as you're an hour deep into Pennsylvania, and the further north you go, and more areas ypu visit, clearly Maryland has less in common with PA than New York. Dont know enough to talk about Ohio...
You've told on yourself in your post with how unfamiliar you are with these areas:
Linguistically: Northern Virginians tend to have the DC accent, which is more exotic, for lack of a better descriptive, than other Northern accents, because DC--linguistically--is a merger of the Tidewater and Baltimore accents; Baltimore, in and of itself, is Tidewater-lite, just harder, due to its geography. The Susquehanna Region of PA has a distinctive sound, and Harrisburg-York accents are noticeably different from Baltimore and Nova's. PA accents (sans Philly, as has already been mentioned, has more in common with Jersey and is an anomaly within its state) are for the most part flatter, and words arent as hurried as they are within the DC-Baltimore CSA...
When you add Richmond into this, you are talking about an accent that is a merger of Tidewater, DC, and Old South, which is light in tone, not the heavy, thick drawl most associate with Southerners. This obvioud ly highlights that you haven't spent meaningful time in Richmond, because--linguistically--Richmond accents are more in common with Baltimore than Charlotte. In fact, you could spend a weekend in Richmond and probably count on your hands how many people you hear speaking in traditional Virginia Southern. Do we soumd extra-Southern to Northerners? Sure, but dont kid yourself: I live in New York State. Baltimore and DC are both considered "country" up here, both in language and culture. So that alone validates nothing. In comparison to the different accents of the Southern US, Richmond, and much of VA, has more in common with some Northern accents than Southern ones. Especially when you make an absurd statement saying Richmond sounds more like Charlotte...
Culturally: your words betry your experience once again, as you compared Richmond culturally more alike to Charlotte than Baltimore. In what? Not history, as these cities have similar beginnings. Not in the way the cities wete developed. Not linguistically, and certainly not in the urban core areas of the cities. City-data.com is your friend, but spending time in these cities for authentic life experience is the greatest teacher. Richmond doesnt even look like Charlotte, but it is very similar tomm Baltimore physically; Baltimore is urban over a larger area, is a larger city and obviously has the advantages of being a larger city than Richmond does. Butmmm you're really reaching with these statements. Comparatively, there isn't a city in the Southern US south of VA's state line that is a mirror image of Richmond. Also, you're completely ignoring the fact that Baltimore and Richmond are seperated by ~150 miles. Charlotte is twice the distance from Richmond, roughly. Add to that, the travel from Charlotte to Richmond is much more rural , whereas the travel to Baltimore is mostly urban/suburban and much more 'busy'. I mean seriously, how different do you really expect Richmond and Baltimore to be? Obviously, differences are there. But Richmind sits just barely south of the Bos-Wash corridor with regular DC-Richmond commutes. Charlotte sits in the Piedmont heading to Atlanta...
On to Harrisburg, which culturally is dissimilar from Baltimore. I'd never thought Harrisburg and Baltimore were too similar besides the fact both have ****ty roads and large poverty. Demographically, Harrisburg is more diverse in population, which is reflected on street level interactions. Baltimore and Richmond are damn near twin cities demographically. Harrisburg is more compact, which is telling of its density, and its architecture is much more varied than Baltimore, with generally speaking, is just rowhouse after rowhouse after rowhouse. Baltimore may have more in commin with Philly, but is certainly different in look and feel from the Susquehanna Valley...
Lastly, what made it most telling that you dont know what you're talking about is the fact that I'm very familiar with all cities mentioned. I was raised in Richmond's southern suburbs, just south of the city. While I have no familial ties to Baltimore, I've been plenty of times, as I do have family in DC and Baltimore is just a skip down the road. I have an aunt who worked for the City of Harrisburg and family in New Cumberland, a western suburb, and love that city. I'll be moving to Charlotte on October 2nd, and as a former resident of Fayetteville NC have been to Charlotte four times, enough to know it isn't much like Richmond. Neither Baltimore nor Charlotte are any of my favorite places, as one is largely a desolate has-been, and the other is just not that urban outside Uptown. You lose this debate...
I lose this debate...LMAO. Ever look at a linguistics map in your life? You think that you personally can overrule thousands of linguistics experts. Check out the University of Pennsylvania and tell those guys they are retarded. How is Harrisburg culturally dissimilar from Baltimore, which is more similar to Philly...you contradict yourself. Historically, Baltimore may be similar to Richmond...from a modern standpoint it is not. Michael Vick speaks Tidewater...lol you've never heard a Tidewater accent in your life pal. DC a merger of the tidewater accent? The tidewater accent may just be below it, but according to the U of Pa. map it's not. And don't discredit that map because they linguistic experts are among the best in the world, BETTER THAN YOU. Richmond from a modern standpoint is Southern Baptist, serves Southern food, and embodies a pure Southern dialect. That makes it more similar to Richmond than to Baltimore, which you admittedly yourself said was more similar to Philly. Richmond is not a Northeastern city in any way, shape, or form. So go hide under your rock and quit bugging me. You've got KodeBlue to deal with as well. 2 to 1. I'd surrender.
I grew up in Richmond, and have been to DC, Baltimore and Hampton Roads more times than I can count--numerous! So to say I've "never heard" a Tidewater accent in my life is an emotional statement, and so obviously is a ploy at entertainment for the readers of this thread, becausethere's no way possible it could true. Read: it isnt possible for any person who grew up in Richmond to have never heard the Tidewater dialect. Your comedy is unfunny and, once again, shows how little you know of either of these cities....
You're pointing out linguistic maps, of which I've already acknowledged, but it is my personal opinion that the Tideqater accent covers a broader region than is shown. Those maps, by the way, are hardly concrete. That same U Penn map places DC in that same undeniably Southern path you've pointed out that Richmond is in--with cities like Atlanta, of which obviously has an altogether different sound. Penn also places New Orleans there as well, which most people know has a very unique sound amongst the rest of the South. So keep quoting Penn's map, while I keep speaking from personal experience...
Surely, Richmond is more sothern in character than Baltimore, and likewise, Baltimore is more Northern in character than Richmond. But that isnt whats being debated here, is it? The reality of the situation is there is both a little north in Richmond, and a little sou t h in Baltimore......
Anybody with experience in Richmond, Baltimore and Charlotte would tell you Richmond and Baltimore are the most alike in that grouping of three. Anybody with experience in Harrisburg and Baltimore can tell you that they arent as alike as they are different. even the most ardent of Richmond haters can tell you it doesnt "embody a pure Southern dialect". Like, compared to whom (re: compared to what Southern city is Richmond linguistically alike)? Lol what does that even mean?
Finally, I am most definitely of the South and wear that proudly. If I ever had any doubt, living in the North the last 30 months has shown me that we arent Northern. We're just Virginia Southern...
Last edited by CaseyB; 09-16-2013 at 09:07 AM..
Reason: rude
Richmond is not a Northeastern city in any way, shape, or form. So go hide under your rock and quit bugging me. You've got KodeBlue to deal with as well. 2 to 1. I'd surrender.
I'm not even sure if Richmond can even be considered a Mid-Atlantic City, let alone a Northeastern City. As someone who grew up in the Philly area, Richmond felt quintessentially Southern to me.
Yeah, that sounds nothing like a Philadelphia accent. Then again, we have people on here claiming that people in Baltimore sound like people on Long Island. People will always be quick on this forum to align themselves with anything northeastern/non-southern.
That said, Philadelphians' speech will almost wholly depend on the speaker. The big difference in Philadelphia/NYC is that there's more cross-cultural fusion in accent and vernacular. Italians have had a significant impact on AA speech. And AAs have had a significant impact on Hispanics in the city, particularly the Puerto Rican community. Angel Garcia (Danny Garcia's father) doesn't sound that different from a lot of white Philadelphians.
Yeah, that sounds nothing like a Philadelphia accent. Then again, we have people on here claiming that people in Baltimore sound like people on Long Island. People will always be quick on this forum to align themselves with anything northeastern/non-southern.
That said, Philadelphians' speech will almost wholly depend on the speaker. The big difference in Philadelphia/NYC is that there's more cross-cultural fusion in accent and vernacular. Italians have had a significant impact on AA speech. And AAs have had a significant impact on Hispanics in the city, particularly the Puerto Rican community. Angel Garcia (Danny Garcia's father) doesn't sound that different from a lot of white Philadelphians.
Well obviously. The kid in the video I posted was doing a parody, and 99 out of 100 Baltimoreans would say "we don't speak that way," and they'd be right. And even with a good example clip, it wouldn't sound JUST LIKE a Philly accent.
But to be sure, Baltimore and Philly accents (though each is unique) share a lot in common. The "e" sound added to the long "O" sound is common in both, "wooder" is common in both, cot and caught are pronounced differently in both (most of the US pronounce the two words the same), same with don and dawn. These are all traits you find in Philly, in Baltimore, and places in-between, but almost nowhere else in the US. Also Philly and Baltimore are the only two east coast port cities where the native accent is rhotic (both pronounce the "R" at the end of words, whereas old Boston, eastern and southern New England, old NY, Tidewater, Lowcountry accents were/are all non-rhotic).
So while someone from Bmore and someone from Philly would be able to distinguish a Bmore accent from a Philly accent, the two cities' accents share a lot of common traits, and they're unique to that part of the Mid-Atlantic US. And someone from CA is likely to think both sound identical.
My Results:
Mid-Atlantic: Also known as the "Philadelphia accent" but also heard in south Jersey, Baltimore, and thereabouts.
BTW, I think your point on cross-cultural fusion in Philly and NYC is spot on. There isn't as much of that in Baltimore, I don't think (someone from Balto, feel free to correct).
Western is kind of neutral, but not quite since it`s still possible to tell where you`re from. So you might not actually be from the West (but you probably are). If you really want to sound "neutral," learn how to say "stock" and "stalk" differently.
Not quite. LOL. I guess that's what happens with education. You learn to talk like the guys from NBC Nightly News. BTW, I do say "stock" and "stalk" differently. "Stock" rhymes with "mock" and "stalk" rhymes with "chalk."
I would say that the one thing many Philadelphians of all races seem to have in common is that their speech is nasally. I notice this a lot in many black Philadelphians, particularly older Philadelphians, when they say the words "there," "here," and "air." They sound like "thayer," "heeya" and "aiyaa" (that's the best I could write it out). The best example I can give of someone who is quintessentially Philadelphia is Beanie Sigel. Listen to the following sentences in this interview:
"The Philadelphia Daily News..." Beanie says it pretty normally here. But I find most people say "PhilaDELphia." The "Del" in Philadelphia is really emphasized, with an almost violent intonation, while the "Phila" part is very hurried when pronounced. It's almost like 40% of the pronunciation of "PhilaDELphia" is spent pronouncing those three letters.
At 1:24 mark
"It's in da papers. It's public record. Twenty dollars and you can search it and find it."
This might be the funniest thing he says because I'm guilty of doing this all the time. It's the way he says "twenty dollas" with the raised pitch in his voice.
At 1:55 mark
"I didn't even know Bernard was there."
There are plenty of "Phillyisms" in his speech. I can't think of any notable older Philadelphians where these patterns are so discernible. McCoy Tyner, Bill Cosby and Patti Labelle all speak kinda neutrally, which comes with success I suppose. The Reverend Jeremiah Wright is from Philadelphia and I don't notice anything Philly specific in the way he speaks.
Last edited by BajanYankee; 09-15-2013 at 11:48 PM..
So while someone from Bmore and someone from Philly would be able to distinguish a Bmore accent from a Philly accent, the two cities' accents share a lot of common traits, and they're unique to that part of the Mid-Atlantic US. And someone from CA is likely to think both sound identical.
I doubt it. I don't think the rhoticity/non-rhoticity is the thing most people are going to key in on. The Baltimore accent is southern sounding and I think that's what people are going to pick up on more than anything else.
Quote:
Baltimore's dialect shares many characteristic pronunciations and words with its northern neighbor Philadelphia. One of these is the long o in words like home, which is very fronted, pronounced something like eh-oo. Otherwise, as we might expect, Baltimore's speech shows a distinctly Southern character.
Quote:
Maryland, like Delaware, has Midland speech along its northern border, the chief distinction being that the Midland dialects in Maryland are of the central Pennsylvania type rather than the Delaware Valley type.Further south are two distinct types of Southern dialects divided by the Chesapeake Bay: the Delmarva variety, on the Eastern Shore, and the Virginia Piedmont type from Baltimore South on the western shore.
And this makes sense considering that: (1) Baltimore has been a southern city for most of its history and (2) Baltimore received a large influx of white southerners in the mid 20th Century. Since southern dialects are very easy for most Americans to discern, I don't see how it would be possible to confuse a Philadelphian and a Baltimorean.
I doubt it. I don't think the rhoticity/non-rhoticity is the thing most people are going to key in on. The Baltimore accent is southern sounding and I think that's what people are going to pick up on more than anything else.
And this makes sense considering that: (1) Baltimore has been a southern city for most of its history and (2) Baltimore received a large influx of white southerners in the mid 20th Century. Since southern dialects are very easy for most Americans to discern, I don't see how it would be possible to confuse a Philadelphian and a Baltimorean.
I see you think you're better than linguists at the University of Pennsylvania. Baltimore does not have Southern speech patterns. Baltimore being a Southern city for most of its history? Maybe up to the Civil War...during the Great Migration that certainly changed. The Baltimore accent is not Southern sounding to my ears, nor is it southern sounding to professional linguists. So however Southern sounding you think it is, you're wrong. You're not a professional linguist.
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