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Couple of quick points: St. Louis metro is about 2.7 millinoin; Cleveland is 2.1 with Akron 900k-1,000,000 adjacent to it. Also, the 2010 census did show Cleveland metro decline; the first metro pop. decline in its history.
Also, do you really believe that only 11,000 people use the RTA daily in Cleveland? Does St. Louis also have heavy rail and bus-rapid transit?
I really hate when people use the 2.1M population figure for Cleveland....it's very inaccurate. I live here and can tell you that Cleveland feels solidly like a 3M person metro, perhaps a shade or two below, at most. I'm not sure exactly why that is, as I know that Cleveland grew FAST in the late 1800's and early 1900's (contributing to its great urban bones) but Akron's presence must give Cleveland that 3M distinction. You'd know what I mean if you've been to Cleveland and other 2M cities.....Cleveland feels much larger. Columbus, for example, is almost exactly 2.1M and it does not feel or look as big as Cleveland. Weird how that works!
If downtown's population grew by 15K from 2000 to 2010, and currently it's growing by about 0.5K per year, then it's projected to grow by 5K from 2010 to 2020? That's a major slowdown in activity......is that what you meant to imply? It kind of goes against the notion that St. Louis' growth is "picking up speed".
I need to correct myself. I was working from memory instead of directly quoting the information, and my memory was incorrect. I should have said that the population of downtown STL has doubled over the last ten years, to 14,000 people. It is now adding an average of 500 people a year. The occupancy rate of downtown housing is at 90 percent. I'm sorry about the flawed info.
My point was that for a long time, people were leaving the downtown area. It was basically a ghost town in the 90's. Today it is alive again and has a totally different feel. Restaurants, stores and entertainment districts are popping up. There is a now a full service supermarket in the heart of downtown. On the same streets people used to fear, you now see families walking the sidewalks with strollers and people eating at sidewalk cafes. There's a great park full of gardens, sculptures and water activities for kids. On an average day it is filled with families and young professionals who are lunching at one of the many food trucks that set up shop along Market and Spruce streets. Ballpark Village is finally going up, which will only add to the draw downtown. When I first came to St. Louis, all you heard on the news was about factory closures and job losses and neighborhoods in decline. Now the city is in the beginning of a renaissance and it is very refreshing to see. Yes, we still have some serious warts and there is a long way to go, but we're finally modernizing our economy and are moving in the right direction.
I've been to both cities quite a few times and visited most of bigger major cities in the US at least once so I think I should contribute:
1) Economy:
The gross metropolitan product (GMP) output of St. Louis ($133 Billion) is higher than that of Cleveland ($106 Billion). Historically, St. Louis has had a much more diversified economy. It has always been a major transportation hub as one of the largest inland ports and railroad hub. It was also a major airline hub as home base of Trans World Airlines and McDonnel Douglas back in the day and may become one again with the massive expansion of Southwest here in the last few years. Defense, airplane, and car manufacturing still have a major presences in this area. Recently, St. Louis has also become a banking hub as home to Wells Fargo Advisors, Scottrade, and Edward Jones. St. Louis also home to a major agricultural/food industry as home to Monsanto and Nestle/Purina. Interestingly, energy is a major part of the St. Louis economy as home to Peabody, the largest coal company in the world. Almost all of the sand used in the fracking boom is also mined from around the St. Louis area.
Notably, one of Cleveland's great strengths is the medical institution of the Cleveland Clinic (ranked #4). However, St. Louis has another one of the world's great medical centers in Barnes-Jewish Hospital (ranked #6). Medical technology and biotech are both major contributiors to the economy of both cities.
2) Demographics:
The St. Louis has a metro population of around 2.9 million while Cleveland has around 2.1 million. St. Louis metro has been slowly growing over time and has never declined while Cleveland has had some declines.
3) Transportation:
I think St. Louis wins this hands down with its light rail system. RTA has a daily ridership of 11k, while St. Louis Metrolink has a daily ridership of 52k.
4) Downtowns:
Cleveland's downtown has recovered very well in recent years while St. Louis still has a ways to go. St. Louis has multiple hubs of activity in its neighborhoods, which I consider to be much stronger than the downtown. The culture is different here in that people rarely go downtown for things other than work or sports events. With the increase in residential units downtown, I hope that changes going forward.
5) Education:
WashU (#14) is ranked higher than Case Western (#37), and WashU's med school (#6) was ranked as high as #2 not so long ago. Both cities could benefit a lot from a major flagship state school located within the city. Imagine how game changing it would be if Mizzou (34k students) was located in St. Louis or Ohio State (56k students) was located in Cleveland? Unfortunately, that will never happen.
6) Cultural centers:
I think both Cleveland and St. Louis have great cultural and sports institutions that continue to provide a lot of strength. However, I think Cleveland tends to be eclipsed by the other major surrounding metros like Detroit or Pittsburgh. St. Louis is seen as a major center halfway up Illinois, into Kentucky, Tennessee, Arkansas, Oklahoma, and through Kansas and thus has a much bigger "catchment basin" Its only competition historically has been with Chicago, which historically has also been a competitor city of Cleveland. Chicago won both battles.
St. Louis is much much older than most cities in the interior (STL was 73 years old when Chicago was founded) and was imagined by its founders as THE major inland city of the US, something akin to a Paris or Berlin of North America. While it hasn't quite lived up to those expectations, I still see a lot of potental for this city going forward.
I have a different take on your essay, here are but a few:
Medical? Sure Wash U’s medical schools is very good, but Cleveland Clinic trumps it away as a worldwide research institution. And even Cleveland’s No. 2 research medical school/hospital/research center, University Hospitals, is competitive with Wash U… Cleveland is cashing in on its worldwide medical reputation as its about to open downtown’s innovative and spanking new Global Center for Health Innovation, which is tied into the soon-to-reopen greatly expanded convention center. The Global Center will act as a global clearinghouse, med technology incubator and meeting space for medical equipment and device companies and experts from all over the world. St. Louis is good, but it can’t touch Cleveland in the medical field.
Colleges? OK, I’ll give you that Wash U is a great school, but it Case, though rated somewhat lower, is considered by most to be an elite school and definitely in Wash U’s league. And in addition to John Carroll U, a strong regional undergrad –oriented school, Cleveland’s got top-rated LAC Oberlin (Lorain County) and huge regional U, Kent State, within 35 miles of Public Square and within the Cleveland Metro area.
Transit? Hold on, Dude. Where the heck do you get that Cleveland RTA (I'm assuming you mean rail) only carried 11K daily? The numbers of just a few years ago are about 26,5K Red Line (heavy rail) and 12K (LRT), and both have risen since the opening of the casino that sits in Tower City right above the main downtown hub station, so that right now, estimates are that the rail total is about 41-42K now, and with the growth along the rail lines (downtown, Ohio City, University Circle and the Flats -- where daily service was just reinstituted on the Waterfront Line), total ridership should crest at about 50K in a few years. Mind you, St. Louis' new system, in a slightly bigger metro area, is 46 miles (to Cleveland's 34 mile total), so Cleveland's passenger per mile is 1235.2 compared with St. Louis’ 1130.4… Cleveland’s system is much older than St. Louis’ (LRT is 100 years old this year!) and has spawned considerably more TOD – ie the entire upscale suburb of Shaker Heights, Shaker Square (in Cleveland, not Shaker Heights) -- both Shaker Square and Shaker Heights have tons of older and moderately old apartments and condo TOD units spawned by the rapid transit line --, Tower City, Flats East Bank and others existing and in the early planning/construction stages. I don’t see this with St. Louis’ Metro Link. … and, oh yeah, as someone noted: Cleveland has both LRT and Heavy Rail as well as the 5-year-old Health Line BRT up Euclid Ave, which is considered a national BRT model system.
Culture? Come on man. All you have to do is say University Circle, and that clearly trumps anything close that St. Louis has -- UC is one of the greatest conglomeration of cultural, educational and medical facilities in the world, and it's in a classically gorgeous park-like setting. The Cleveland Orchestra is rated #1 or #2 (usually #1) along with the New York Symphony; Cleveland's Art Museum is tops, as is the Natural History Museum and Botanical gardens... And the Western Reserve Historical Society, which includes the amazingly innovative Crawford Auto/Aviation museum, is Cleveland's own (impressive) version of the Smithsonian... All the above, btw, is in UC about a block or 2 from one another.... And on top of that, you can take a Health Line BRT ride from UC, downtown to Playhouse Square, where you'll find 4 classic theatres, whose combined seating for theatres in one place is 2nd only to NYC's Lincoln Center... And it doesn't stop there, because Cleveland has a huge rep for its smaller regional theatres, as well. The annual Great Lakes Theatre Festival is so famous that the 1982 film "Those Lips, Those Eyes" (featuring Joel Gray and Jerry Stiller) was filmed in Cleveland and based on the GLTF... And we just wrapped the 37th annual Cleveland International Film Festival, which is one of the nation's largest (this year's attendance for the 2-week festival, was just shy of 90,000)... and, btw, the Festival is centered on Tower City, ... yep, the same complex that features the new casino, the central rail hub, offices, hotels, retail, restaurants, and tunnel connections to the Cavs' Quicken Loans Arena and the Indians Progressive Field... All this synergy quite naturally pumping tons of life into both downtown and the local economy. The Indians' 43,000 opener and the CIFF intersected and it was booming!...
The new popularity of downtown and it's more 24/7 presence, thanks largely to the 1-year old Horseshoe Casino at the city's core, along with the other aforementioned developments coming on line and tons of new restaurants, both opened and under construction, have sent downtown parking rates into the stratosphere. Yeah, it's a pain in the arse, but if that isn't a sign of downtown health, I don't know what is... Downtown St. Louis is nice, but Cleveland's downtown is considerably ahead of it in terms of residential growth and sheer vitality...
… there’s a lot more that I can site, but I’ll leave it at these for now.
The lists of festivals and cultural amenities are meaningless, because either city can spew off a gazillion things. St. Louis is stronger in some, and Cleveland is stronger in others. Pound for pound, they are very comparable cities, although I think most would agree that St. Louis has a lot more charm and its city neighborhoods have more character and history.
I have a different take on your essay, here are but a few:
Medical? Sure Wash U’s medical schools is very good, but Cleveland Clinic trumps it away as a worldwide research institution. And even Cleveland’s No. 2 research medical school/hospital/research center, University Hospitals, is competitive with Wash U… Cleveland is cashing in on its worldwide medical reputation as its about to open downtown’s innovative and spanking new Global Center for Health Innovation, which is tied into the soon-to-reopen greatly expanded convention center. The Global Center will act as a global clearinghouse, med technology incubator and meeting space for medical equipment and device companies and experts from all over the world. St. Louis is good, but it can’t touch Cleveland in the medical field.
Colleges? OK, I’ll give you that Wash U is a great school, but it Case, though rated somewhat lower, is considered by most to be an elite school and definitely in Wash U’s league. And in addition to John Carroll U, a strong regional undergrad –oriented school, Cleveland’s got top-rated LAC Oberlin (Lorain County) and huge regional U, Kent State, within 35 miles of Public Square and within the Cleveland Metro area.
Transit? Hold on, Dude. Where the heck do you get that Cleveland RTA (I'm assuming you mean rail) only carried 11K daily? The numbers of just a few years ago are about 26,5K Red Line (heavy rail) and 12K (LRT), and both have risen since the opening of the casino that sits in Tower City right above the main downtown hub station, so that right now, estimates are that the rail total is about 41-42K now, and with the growth along the rail lines (downtown, Ohio City, University Circle and the Flats -- where daily service was just reinstituted on the Waterfront Line), total ridership should crest at about 50K in a few years. Mind you, St. Louis' new system, in a slightly bigger metro area, is 46 miles (to Cleveland's 34 mile total), so Cleveland's passenger per mile is 1235.2 compared with St. Louis’ 1130.4… Cleveland’s system is much older than St. Louis’ (LRT is 100 years old this year!) and has spawned considerably more TOD – ie the entire upscale suburb of Shaker Heights, Shaker Square (in Cleveland, not Shaker Heights) -- both Shaker Square and Shaker Heights have tons of older and moderately old apartments and condo TOD units spawned by the rapid transit line --, Tower City, Flats East Bank and others existing and in the early planning/construction stages. I don’t see this with St. Louis’ Metro Link. … and, oh yeah, as someone noted: Cleveland has both LRT and Heavy Rail as well as the 5-year-old Health Line BRT up Euclid Ave, which is considered a national BRT model system.
Culture? Come on man. All you have to do is say University Circle, and that clearly trumps anything close that St. Louis has -- UC is one of the greatest conglomeration of cultural, educational and medical facilities in the world, and it's in a classically gorgeous park-like setting. The Cleveland Orchestra is rated #1 or #2 (usually #1) along with the New York Symphony; Cleveland's Art Museum is tops, as is the Natural History Museum and Botanical gardens... And the Western Reserve Historical Society, which includes the amazingly innovative Crawford Auto/Aviation museum, is Cleveland's own (impressive) version of the Smithsonian... All the above, btw, is in UC about a block or 2 from one another.... And on top of that, you can take a Health Line BRT ride from UC, downtown to Playhouse Square, where you'll find 4 classic theatres, whose combined seating for theatres in one place is 2nd only to NYC's Lincoln Center... And it doesn't stop there, because Cleveland has a huge rep for its smaller regional theatres, as well. The annual Great Lakes Theatre Festival is so famous that the 1982 film "Those Lips, Those Eyes" (featuring Joel Gray and Jerry Stiller) was filmed in Cleveland and based on the GLTF... And we just wrapped the 37th annual Cleveland International Film Festival, which is one of the nation's largest (this year's attendance for the 2-week festival, was just shy of 90,000)... and, btw, the Festival is centered on Tower City, ... yep, the same complex that features the new casino, the central rail hub, offices, hotels, retail, restaurants, and tunnel connections to the Cavs' Quicken Loans Arena and the Indians Progressive Field... All this synergy quite naturally pumping tons of life into both downtown and the local economy. The Indians' 43,000 opener and the CIFF intersected and it was booming!...
The new popularity of downtown and it's more 24/7 presence, thanks largely to the 1-year old Horseshoe Casino at the city's core, along with the other aforementioned developments coming on line and tons of new restaurants, both opened and under construction, have sent downtown parking rates into the stratosphere. Yeah, it's a pain in the arse, but if that isn't a sign of downtown health, I don't know what is... Downtown St. Louis is nice, but Cleveland's downtown is considerably ahead of it in terms of residential growth and sheer vitality...
… there’s a lot more that I can site, but I’ll leave it at these for now.
I could not have stated it any better, what a great and informed posting on Cleveland!
I really hate when people use the 2.1M population figure for Cleveland....it's very inaccurate. I live here and can tell you that Cleveland feels solidly like a 3M person metro, perhaps a shade or two below, at most. I'm not sure exactly why that is, as I know that Cleveland grew FAST in the late 1800's and early 1900's (contributing to its great urban bones) but Akron's presence must give Cleveland that 3M distinction. You'd know what I mean if you've been to Cleveland and other 2M cities.....Cleveland feels much larger. Columbus, for example, is almost exactly 2.1M and it does not feel or look as big as Cleveland. Weird how that works!
I totally concur with Min-Chi-Cbus on his aforementioned statement. Cleveland's metro is actually just under 3 million - considerably larger than St. Louis. Cleveland is showing signs of a MAJOR TURNAROUND, it's quite evident throughout most of the city. Downtown streets that used to become ghostly quiet after 6pm are now teeming with people and activity. Downtown housing is BOOMING! Occupancy is at 97% with waiting lists to get into most properties. Over 1,000 new rental units are scheduled to come online in the coming year ... things are looking very, very good in Cleveland.
I've also been to St. Louis, in fact as a teenager my Father took a job transfer to suburban Wentzville, Missouri ... so, I recall alot about the area. I've been back many times since my teen years and St. Louis does have some nice attributes.
As far as which city will stage a stronger come-back, I'd place my bets on Cleveland. There's already over $9 BILLION in major development occuring all over the city - $3 BILLION alone just in the downtown area. Add another $360 MILLION to the existing $3 BILLION of downtown development as a major announcement was just made this week regarding a total transformation of Cleveland's downtown waterfront and Public Square, including a new 20 story signature hotel to adjoin our brand new convention center.
I totally concur with Min-Chi-Cbus on his aforementioned statement. Cleveland's metro is actually just under 3 million - considerably larger than St. Louis. Cleveland is showing signs of a MAJOR TURNAROUND, it's quite evident throughout most of the city. Downtown streets that used to become ghostly quiet after 6pm are now teeming with people and activity. Downtown housing is BOOMING! Occupancy is at 97% with waiting lists to get into most properties. Over 1,000 new rental units are scheduled to come online in the coming year ... things are looking very, very good in Cleveland.
I've also been to St. Louis, in fact as a teenager my Father took a job transfer to suburban Wentzville, Missouri ... so, I recall alot about the area. I've been back many times since my teen years and St. Louis does have some nice attributes.
As far as which city will stage a stronger come-back, I'd place my bets on Cleveland. There's already over $9 BILLION in major development occuring all over the city - $3 BILLION alone just in the downtown area. Add another $360 MILLION to the existing $3 BILLION of downtown development as a major announcement was just made this week regarding a total transformation of Cleveland's downtown waterfront and Public Square, including a new 20 story signature hotel to adjoin our brand new convention center.
Why are you typing in bold? Is it part of your PR bit? As for what I highlighted, huh? Cleveland's metro is just over 2 million people (lazy wicki search shows 2,068,283), and shrinking slightly. St. Louis is just under 2.8 (2,795,794) and growing slightly. Just under 3 would not be considerably larger than St. Louis, it'd be about the same size, but what are you using exactly?
Location: Midwesterner living in California (previously East Coast)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JuanHamez
I've been to both cities quite a few times and visited most of bigger major cities in the US at least once so I think I should contribute:
1) Economy:
The gross metropolitan product (GMP) output of St. Louis ($133 Billion) is higher than that of Cleveland ($106 Billion). Historically, St. Louis has had a much more diversified economy. It has always been a major transportation hub as one of the largest inland ports and railroad hub. It was also a major airline hub as home base of Trans World Airlines and McDonnel Douglas back in the day and may become one again with the massive expansion of Southwest here in the last few years. Defense, airplane, and car manufacturing still have a major presences in this area. Recently, St. Louis has also become a banking hub as home to Wells Fargo Advisors, Scottrade, and Edward Jones. St. Louis also home to a major agricultural/food industry as home to Monsanto and Nestle/Purina. Interestingly, energy is a major part of the St. Louis economy as home to Peabody, the largest coal company in the world. Almost all of the sand used in the fracking boom is also mined from around the St. Louis area.
Notably, one of Cleveland's great strengths is the medical institution of the Cleveland Clinic (ranked #4). However, St. Louis has another one of the world's great medical centers in Barnes-Jewish Hospital (ranked #6). Medical technology and biotech are both major contributiors to the economy of both cities.
2) Demographics:
The St. Louis has a metro population of around 2.9 million while Cleveland has around 2.1 million. St. Louis metro has been slowly growing over time and has never declined while Cleveland has had some declines.
3) Transportation:
I think St. Louis wins this hands down with its light rail system. RTA has a daily ridership of 11k, while St. Louis Metrolink has a daily ridership of 52k.
4) Downtowns:
Cleveland's downtown has recovered very well in recent years while St. Louis still has a ways to go. St. Louis has multiple hubs of activity in its neighborhoods, which I consider to be much stronger than the downtown. The culture is different here in that people rarely go downtown for things other than work or sports events. With the increase in residential units downtown, I hope that changes going forward.
5) Education:
WashU (#14) is ranked higher than Case Western (#37), and WashU's med school (#6) was ranked as high as #2 not so long ago. Both cities could benefit a lot from a major flagship state school located within the city. Imagine how game changing it would be if Mizzou (34k students) was located in St. Louis or Ohio State (56k students) was located in Cleveland? Unfortunately, that will never happen.
6) Cultural centers:
I think both Cleveland and St. Louis have great cultural and sports institutions that continue to provide a lot of strength. However, I think Cleveland tends to be eclipsed by the other major surrounding metros like Detroit or Pittsburgh. St. Louis is seen as a major center halfway up Illinois, into Kentucky, Tennessee, Arkansas, Oklahoma, and through Kansas and thus has a much bigger "catchment basin" Its only competition historically has been with Chicago, which historically has also been a competitor city of Cleveland. Chicago won both battles.
St. Louis is much much older than most cities in the interior (STL was 73 years old when Chicago was founded) and was imagined by its founders as THE major inland city of the US, something akin to a Paris or Berlin of North America. While it hasn't quite lived up to those expectations, I still see a lot of potental for this city going forward.
St. Louis' pull covers about half of MO, a big chunk of Southern IL, and maybe some of AR. That city has little to Zero importance in KS, OK, and TN.
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