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I'll be honest, I have been to a bunch of different waterfront's and there are particular things I look for. If you don't have certain things, it's out for me. I don't like Baltimore's harbor compared to what we are buildings in D.C. for instance because I feel like it's basically a suburban boardwalk. No long peer's with maybe a restaurant at the end overlooking the water. No cobble stone streets or anything like that. No urban canyon street wall which I feel is a requirement to have an urban waterfront which I prefer. Way too much open space. No interactive water features like waterfalls, fountains, or pedestrian bridges. A lack of world class food option's at the water's edge. Just a lot to be desired in my opinion. What waterfront's do you like and what do you like about them?
Great. Now look at the rest of the world. Virtually every major city in the world is based on the water in some way and most of the ones in post-industrial nations and many elsewhere have been moving or have moved towards your "activated" waterfronts. London would probably be one of the most visible examples of this, but places like Tokyo with Odaiba, Hamburg, and Shanghai would be good examples of recently improved waterfronts. Then there are ones that have been great for a while such as Rio, Miami, Sydney, Barcelona, Lisbon, Hong Kong, Vancouver or Chicago. It is extremely unlikely for DC to be among the best in the world even in the kind of criteria you're setting.
Great. Now look at the rest of the world. Virtually every major city in the world is based on the water in some way and most of the ones in post-industrial nations and many elsewhere have been moving or have moved towards your "activated" waterfronts. London would probably be one of the most visible examples of this, but places like Tokyo with Odaiba, Hamburg, and Shanghai would be good examples of recently improved waterfronts. Then there are ones that have been great for a while such as Rio, Miami, Sydney, Barcelona, Lisbon, Hong Kong, Vancouver or Chicago. It is extremely unlikely for DC to be among the best in the world even in the kind of criteria you're setting.
I don't like Chicago's because of the lack of things mentioned and it's not on a major river so you're limited on what you can do. Millennium park for instance would be better in the middle of the city surrounded by high-rise’s like central park is. I hate the fact that it bumps up against the lake. No street wall, nothing. Navy pier is also nice, however, no streetwall because the buildings are far away from the water's edge.
London is a winner obviously having the river there with so many option's. Never been to Shanghai, however, from what I have seen over the years, the city also has the open plaza style and buildings are set back from the water with bike/walking trails and open space. No go for me. I haven't seen a pedestrian style entertainment plaza for Shanghai on the water but since it's not on a river that may be hard to do, and I have never been there, maybe you know of one. How about restaurants over the water, do you know of any area's with that style in Shanghai?
I think you would probably agree, most cities activate their waterfront with plaza's, nature, and trail's or parks mainly because they're on the ocean which doesn't give you the ability to create the environment I'm talking about. Cities have major building setbacks from the water's edge. That's why London, Venice etc. are the best in my opinion because a river allows you to do the things I am talking about. Most cities have major setbacks from the water's edge. Even NYC does with highway's or green space between the water.
Also, please keep in mind, everyone makes their own criteria. I am the one who likes these things. Nobody else has to like them or the waterfront in D.C. People don't like many things on different topics. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Last edited by MDAllstar; 12-20-2013 at 10:51 AM..
I don't like Chicago's because of the lack of things mentioned and it's not on a major river so you're limited on what you can do. Millennium park for instance would be better in the middle of the city surrounded by high-rise’s like central park is. I hate the fact that it bumps up against the lake. No street wall, nothing. Navy pier is also nice, however, no streetwall because the buildings are far away from the water's edge.
London is a winner obviously having the river there with so many option's. Never been to Shanghai, however, from what I have seen over the years, the city also has the open plaza style and buildings are set back from the water with bike/walking trails and open space. No go for me. I haven't seen a pedestrian style entertainment plaza for Shanghai on the water but since it's not on a river that may be hard to do, and I have never been there, maybe you know of one. How about restaurants over the water, do you know of any area's with that style in Shanghai?
I think you would probably agree, most cities activate their waterfront with plaza's, nature, and trail's or parks mainly because they're on the ocean which doesn't give you the ability to create the environment I'm talking about. Cities have major building setbacks from the water's edge. That's why London, Venice etc. are the best in my opinion because a river allows you to do the things I am talking about. Most cities have major setbacks from the water's edge. Even NYC does with highway's or green space between the water.
Also, please keep in mind, everyone makes their own criteria. I am the one who likes these things. Nobody else has to like them or the waterfront in D.C. People don't like many things on different topics. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Chicago has both the lakefront and the riverfront as the city has put a lot of investment into the riverfront over the past decade and it has streetwalls far greater than anything DC can offer. It has all the options you've mentioned. That's already built and being improved--you're talking about projects that are still mostly to come.
Shanghai has two main urbanized waterfronts with the Huangpu River and Suzhou Creek. The creek is sort of a mess for the most part, but the banks of the Huangpu have probably seen more construction than anywhere else on earth in the last two decades with possibly the exception of Dubai.
I understand different preferences. It seems like for most of the preferences listed, it's extremely unlikely for DC to be one of the best in the world as the world is really, really large. Your personal favorite? Sure.
Chicago has both the lakefront and the riverfront as the city has put a lot of investment into the riverfront over the past decade and it has streetwalls far greater than anything DC can offer. It has all the options you've mentioned. That's already built and being improved--you're talking about projects that are still mostly to come.
Shanghai has two main urbanized waterfronts with the Huangpu River and Suzhou Creek. The creek is sort of a mess for the most part, but the banks of the Huangpu have probably seen more construction than anywhere else on earth in the last two decades with possibly the exception of Dubai.
I understand different preferences. It seems like for most of the preferences listed, it's extremely unlikely for DC to be one of the best in the world as the world is really, really large. Your personal favorite? Sure.
The thing about Chicago for me is the two thing's I am talking about are separated. If the pier was in the city on the river, it would fit the bill. The pier is surrounded by all that open space. Then you have the river which doesn't have the pier. I'm looking for a combination of the two. Do you know what I mean by that? Just a preference.
Shanghai again has setbacks for the buildings and I have yet to see anything that combine's what I am talking about. Could you give an example?
For many people, they enjoy open space and I believe it's a refreshing escape for many to leave the buildings. I don't really think skyscrapers belong on a waterfront which is a major drawback for many cities. That is the reason you can't activate those cities waterfront at a pedestrian scale you would see in Paris or Venice. Waterfront's should be at a pedestrian scale that is densely built like a London or Venice or Paris. Skyscraper's do nothing for street level scale at the river which is the main reason they are setback from every waterfront in the world.
Just think how nice Shanghai's waterfront would be with a Paris style development on the water's edge with restaurants coming out to cobble stone streets with a couple long peers and ships docked. I guess I'm looking for the best in all of these combined and I feel like what is being built in D.C. and many other cities now that combines pedestrian scale urban development with street level retail and an activated water's edge to boot accomplishes that.
Cities do their population a major disservice in my opinion by building skyscrapers at the water's edge and stepping down from there. It would be better to build skyscrapers in the center of the city and build pedestrian style villages at the water's edge which creates an intimate style you would want to have dinner with that someone on. A sidewalk cafe next to the water's edge at your favorite bistro.
Last edited by MDAllstar; 12-20-2013 at 12:44 PM..
The thing about Chicago for me is the two thing's I am talking about are separated. If the pier was in the city on the river, it would fit the bill. The pier is surrounded by all that open space. Then you have the river which doesn't have the pier. I'm looking for a combination of the two. Do you know what I mean by that? Just a preference.
Shanghai again has setbacks for the buildings and I have yet to see anything that combine's what I am talking about. Could you give an example?
For many people, they enjoy open space and I believe it's a refreshing escape for many to leave the buildings. I don't really think skyscrapers belong on a waterfront which is a major drawback for many cities. That is the reason you can't activate those cities waterfront at a pedestrian scale you would see in Paris or Venice. Waterfront's should be at a pedestrian scale that is densely built like a London or Venice or Paris. Skyscraper's do nothing for street level scale at the river which is the main reason they are setback from every waterfront in the world.
Just think how nice Shanghai's waterfront would be with a Paris style development on the water's edge with restaurants coming out to cobble stone streets with a couple long peers and ships docked. I guess I'm looking for the best in all of these combined and I feel like what is being built in D.C. and many other cities now that combines pedestrian scale urban development with street level retail and an activated water's edge to boot accomplishes that.
Cities do their population a major disservice in my opinion by building skyscrapers at the water's edge and stepping down from there. It would be better to build skyscrapers in the center and build pedestrian style villages at the water's edge which creates an intimate style you would want to have dinner with that someone on. A sidewalk cafe next to the water's edge at your favorite bistro.
So Navy Pier is on the lakefront. Great. There are other things on the riverfront. A lot more street walls and a lot more dramatic urban canyons.
Shanghai has a lot of little waterfronts. There's a nice park and german beerhouse surrounded by massive skyscrapers on the Pudong side of the river. There are a lot of other places. Shanghai is massive as is its waterfront.
Anyhow, I get DC is your preference. That is not the same statement as DC having a waterfront that's one of the best in the world which it is not by pretty much any measure. Where it comes out top is that you prefer it the most--so just say that and realize that's not the case for pretty much everyone else in the world.
So Navy Pier is on the lakefront. Great. There are other things on the riverfront. A lot more street walls and a lot more dramatic urban canyons.
Shanghai has a lot of little waterfronts. There's a nice park and german beerhouse surrounded by massive skyscrapers on the Pudong side of the river. There are a lot of other places. Shanghai is massive as is its waterfront.
Anyhow, I get DC is your preference. That is not the same statement as DC having a waterfront that's one of the best in the world which it is not by pretty much any measure. Where it comes out top is that you prefer it the most--so just say that and realize that's not the case for pretty much everyone else in the world.
Well, the first thing you probably should realize is I prefer the European layout of a city over any other layout of a city in the world. Cities that have that layout are king to me. Shanghai nor Tokyo or any other Asian city has that layout. I'm not keen on other forms of urbanism which probably explains my issue with LA and Chicago's form. Asian cities look nothing like European cities. Maybe that will explain why I hold the N.E. to such a high level too. Back to waterfront's, you want to know which waterfront I like more than Chicago's waterfront? I like San Antonio more than Chicago and based on my description, that should make sense.
As for urban canyon's, what is the waterfront benefit of an urban canyon if it has no interaction with the river or if there is a park or highway between them? Also, skyscrapers don't belong next to the water's edge. That type of height will never create the intimate feel I am talking about.
Last edited by MDAllstar; 12-20-2013 at 01:08 PM..
So Navy Pier is on the lakefront. Great. There are other things on the riverfront. A lot more street walls and a lot more dramatic urban canyons.
Shanghai has a lot of little waterfronts. There's a nice park and german beerhouse surrounded by massive skyscrapers on the Pudong side of the river. There are a lot of other places. Shanghai is massive as is its waterfront.
Anyhow, I get DC is your preference. That is not the same statement as DC having a waterfront that's one of the best in the world which it is not by pretty much any measure. Where it comes out top is that you prefer it the most--so just say that and realize that's not the case for pretty much everyone else in the world.
Well, the first thing you probably should realize is I prefer the European layout of a city over any other layout of a city in the world. Cities that have that layout are king to me. Shanghai nor Tokyo or any other Asian city has that layout. I'm not keen on other forms of urbanism which probably explains my issue with LA and Chicago's form. Asian cities look nothing like European cities. Maybe that will explain why I hold the N.E. to such a high level too. Back to waterfront's, you want to know which waterfront I like more than Chicago's waterfront? I like San Antonio more than Chicago and based on my description, that should make sense.
As for urban canyon's, what is the waterfront benefit of an urban canyon if it has no interaction with the river or if there is a park or highway between them? Also, skyscrapers don't belong next to the water's edge. That type of height will never create the intimate feel I am talking about.
Great that we're talking about a European-style waterfront. I hear Europe has a lot of them as does a lot of the Americas. DC is not among the best in that group. Also, much of Shanghai's inner core was built by European powers especially much of the urban waterfront--there are other cities around the world like that, too.
Chicago's waterfront has been taking cues from San Antonio. It's been working on it since 1990, I think. There are other cities, of course.
I don't see how DC ranks so well with the ones you posted and there are dozens of cities (European-style!) that are nicer than DC's. Does that really qualify for one of the best in the world? Would anyone actually agree with you on that? Also, do you love Disney or what?
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