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1) A river, thankfully narrow with riverwalks and pretty bridges, but the roads are very wide and the space a vast amount of concrete before a pedestrian catches shade, windbreaks, or places to go
2) On the E side there is definitely a 2-4 block buffer zone of a higher amount of decrepit buildings and vintage 60s/70s urban renewal mess/design (PECO building for one)
3) On the W side there is a hulking union station that is an island to itself for pedestrians and is more enjoyable to get to underground, and across the street is a post office. Additionally, there are blocks of surface lots, parking garages, and contained buildings (Cira Center for one), as well as a dearth of options (which is likely due to lack of pedestrians/apartments immediately there for good reason)
3a) Not to mention college playing fields bifurcated by elevated rail lines
3b) All connected by wide, barren roads without landscaping
4) Followed by a university campus or two or three and dorm towers
4a) Sprinkled in with some hospitals
THEN you get back to areas that are less institutional
I mean anyone can get on Google and check this out. For those saying University City is a seamless transition, OR the transition from CC to the neighborhoods on the Northside, is deluding themselves or being misleading. The Northside has some rough spots, bad sidewalks, wide roads, a highway to cross over (that should be capped like it is in Old City/Society Hill), surface lots and urban prairie areas, and then crime infested areas beyond that. Seamless? No.
The reason Philly gets nods for its "seamless transition" is because it is an elongated downtown with its best neighborhoods immediately to the south, so there is a ~2 mile "edge" of downtown that CAN seamlessly transition to the largely yuppie neighborhoods to the south.
But I wouldn't call that transition any more seamless than the transition of New York's business districts to its residential areas and I wouldn't call it any more seamless than San Francisco's neighborhoods into its business district with the exception of SOMA, which is sprouting up a lot more development than U City or Philly's northside right now and is already a better transition.
some of your points are ok and others just flat out wrong
Will leave it at that (well I should have)
how far north are you talking how much time have you spent on the north transition yes the parkway has some park and an old wide Blvd modeled after a pretty famous rode in France but seriously u take this to levels I cant see. Philly has its warts but not the way you describe - and yes SOMA is far worse in this sense (I mean shopping carts and scary street people all over and many lots and newer blown out buildings, glad to see it changing as are parts of Philly) as is the tenderloin to the south for the SF perspective - the area under the highway and fenced is god awful - worse then Philly and the tenderloin should be well above Girard if in Philly - but I see the positive of SF - not sure I have ever the same from you TBH
and really the fields and parks developed along the old railyards. I call it an improvement and very functional. It take literally 90 seconds to walk from CC to the other side of the river and past the fields - will be be even more pleasant soon when Penn completes their pedestrian connections
Correction.... I said Between CITY HALL AND UNIVERSITY CITY... The many blocks of row home neighborhoods.
thats even more specific - where exactly are these many blocks?
its a row house city yet you call out an area that probably may the very fewest and on most connecting streets there are actually zero in the range you described hard to do with Philly yet you found one
Philly definitely has one of the most seamless downtowns in the U.S. It's probably second to NYC in terms of transitioning from CBD to neighborhoods. SF and Boston and DC aren't quite as good.
I'd say SF is even better than Philly in that department though. Philly's CBD is broken away from seamless development on three sides (two rivers and a freeway cutting between them near the CBD's northern edge), while SF's is cut off on two sides (the bay and a freeway that runs along the CBD's southern edge).
And in addition to that, there's the fact that SF simply has fewer empty lots, parking lots, abandoned buildings and such. So there are not only continuous street-walls of unbroken development radiating out for miles from SF's CBD in two directions (compared to just one in Philly), but overall, the streetwalls are more complete as well.
When I first saw this thread pop up the other day, I thought to myself it had train-wreck potential. Achievement = Unlocked.
Just a couple observations.
Defining "downtown" or "Center City" as Girard to Tasker north/south is let's just say...generous. Traditionally it's been Pine-to-Vine, with some other near neighborhoods in the vicinity of say, Fairmount, Spring Garden, etc. to the north, and South St. and environs to the south, while not technically "Center City" still close enough and connected enough to be considered 'downtown adjacent.' I am not familiar enough with DT Chicago and it's adjacent neighborhoods to make a direct comparison, but my suspicion is, by most definitions and for most practical purposes, it is at least marginally larger and more populous than an equivalent demographic slice of Philly. If you're a Philly poster, and you take issue with Bay Area posters who play statistical shell games with density, and zip code tracts, and hypothetical annexations when SF is compared to Philly, you can't really in good conscious turn around and do the same thing when comparing Philly to Chi....
As to the question of whether or not Center City/University City are beginning to merge, it's an interesting topic, which came up in the Philadelphia forum a little while back. I've heard speculation to this effect for prob nearly two decades or so, but I've always been skeptical....until the last few years. The rate of development in UC is rapid, impressive, and increasing, as is it's connectivity to Center City. If UC isn't a second downtown, or extension of Center City yet, it will be in the very near future.
Google maps is a useful tool, but a poor substitute for understanding how any city actually functions in practical terms. I've lived, worked, gone to school, and generally hung out and had a good time in both Center City and University City off and on for most of my adult life. I'm intimately familiar with both. That's why until the last few years I considered them closely connected, but discrete areas. That's also why I can say that both the physical and psychological boundaries between the two are fading, rapidly. As a physical barrier, the Schuylkill and it's bridges are probably less of an impediment to pedestrian and vehicular travel (or commercial development) than the Brooklyn Bridge/East River, and certainly less of a deterrent than SF Bay, or either the Bay or Golden Gate Bridges. Numerous parks and attractions are springing up along both banks faster than I can keep up with them. Buses, trolleys, subways, commuter rail, and private transportation services already connect CC/UC at dozens, if not hundreds, of points. Properties along both banks are being redeveloped, and new office and residential structures are going up all over the area. From the river to about 38th st., between Market and Spruce particularly, the energy is palpable. This is the true new frontier of Center City, and I suspect that the 21st definition of "downtown" Philadelphia will reflect that. Now, what that means in the context of Center City measured against DT Chi, I can't say for certain although my personal opinion is that downtown Chi still comes out significantly ahead. If we ever maximize the potential of the Delaware waterfront, and re-integrate it with the rest of Center City then it might become a different proposition. But that's a whole different issue. One thing at a time.
Last edited by LiveFrom215; 04-22-2015 at 11:04 PM..
Reason: typos, minor edits, etc.
Ah I disagree. There is something charming about the nice parts of Philly. I do like Chicago though. Both of there rough parts that, to me at least, make them two of the more interesting places in the US.
Great news for Philly! Now, does anyone care outside of C-D regulars and the Philadelphia Chamber of Commerce?
I'm not hating on Philadelphia, but I don't think anyone is making the decision to move to Philadelphia solely on the basis that its downtown population is slightly larger in population than Chicago's. It's like claiming Chicago is better than Philadelphia because its grass is shorter, or that Miami is better than Houston because its name has fewer letters; it may seem like a win for the homers (and they'll certainly play it up that way), but everyday Americans could seriously care less.
What about Chicago and Philly in reasonable metrics that people actually care about, like modes of transportation, school systems, entertainment, and the health of the economy?
Even without University City, Philly's downtown is still more populated than downtown Chicago. I have already proven this. So ultimately it's a losing argument to say that downtown Chicago is more populated than downtown Philly. Everyone that tried to prove me on this subject has failed.
The point that people are making is that your whole premise that Philly somehow surpassed Chicago in downtown population is a made up story, when in fact Philly has always had more people downtown just by the way it is structured; in fact, Chicago is catching up to Philly, which you failed to mention and continue to ignore. You are so busy trying to say you are right, that you ignore where you were wrong in making up the surpassed story, somehow inferring that dt Chicago is failing, when it is currently booming. Taht is the problem here, Gwilly.
What about Chicago and Philly in reasonable metrics that people actually care about, like modes of transportation, school systems, entertainment, and the health of the economy?
- skbl17
Create your own thread if you want that kind of discussion.
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