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So you are adding another city, and comparing an area in Minnesota that is more than twice the land area as the city of Pittsburgh limits? and you think that's a valid comparison?
Yeah, let's pretend St. Paul doesn't exist right next to Minneapolis and doesn't function as a central city. BTW, I did include Minneapolis only numbers.
Here are the 2013 Census Numbers:
25 to 34:
Minneapolis: (54.9 sq mi): 87,084
Pittsburgh (55.5 sq mi): 56,893
St. Paul: (51.9 sq mi): 54,095
Urban Area (2010)
25 to 34
Minneapolis - St. Paul: 429,665
Pittsburgh: 237,507
MSA (2010)
25 to 34
Minneapolis - St. Paul: 510,594
Pittsburgh: 298,123
Yeah, let's pretend that St. Paul doesn't exist and doesn't function as a central city. BTW, I did include Minneapolis only numbers.
Don't pretend something doesn't exist, just compare apples to apples. You made a final statement comparing the combination of the two, to just Pittsburgh city limits, which is less than half of the land area, yet surrounded by other urban areas that you didn't include. In other words, a lousy attempt at comparison.
Don't pretend something doesn't exist, just compare apples to apples. You made a final statement comparing the combination of the two, to just Pittsburgh city limits, which is less than half of the land area, yet surrounded by other urban areas that you didn't include. In other words, a lousy attempt at comparison.
Minneapolis and St. Paul literally border one another and pretty much function as one. I'm not making that up. Anyway, here ya go:
Within 100 Sq. Miles of Central City (2010)
25 to 34
Minneapolis (55487): 110,773
Pittsburgh (15219): 78,602
Minneapolis and St. Paul literally border one another and pretty much function as one. I'm not making that up. Anyway, here ya go:
Within 100 Sq. Miles of Central City (2010)
25 to 34
Minneapolis (55487): 110,773
Pittsburgh (15219): 78,602
Move along.
There's three problems with this measure. First, around 100,000 less people live within 100 square miles of Pittsburgh's city center, largely due to topographical reasons. Secondly, studies shown upthread looked at 20somethings, which is different from the 25-34 bracket. Third, census data from 2010 isn't current. The 30somethings in that bracket are pretty clearly younger Gen X, and have since aged out of this grouping.
That said, it may well be Minneapolis beats Pittsburgh regarding the aggregate percentage of the population which is millennial overall, by at least a few percent. Still, Pittsburgh has been having more rapid growth of younger people with four-year degrees than Minneapolis in recent years.
Care to point me to some relevant google street views? When I look around the Minneapolis Street views, I mostly see modern highrises taking up whole blocks, with really underdeveloped land with lots of parking lots surrounding the CBD. Higrises of course have height, but from a pedestrian perspective they're kinda boring - no variance in the street wall, and not a lot of pedestrian activity. A lot of the older ones are set back too much from the sidewalk as well. What portions of Downtown look more like this - with lots of historic mid-rises along narrow streets?
I think this is partly the nature of using streetview to look at a city you don't know very well. For example I know almost nothing about the layout of Pittsburgh, these are the first places I randomly looked at, they all look like they are relatively close in, but I wouldn't characterize any of them as super dense and urban (although I know that exists in Pittsburgh):
There's three problems with this measure. First, around 100,000 less people live within 100 square miles of Pittsburgh's city center, largely due to topographical reasons. Secondly, studies shown upthread looked at 20somethings, which is different from the 25-34 bracket. Third, census data from 2010 isn't current. The 30somethings in that bracket are pretty clearly younger Gen X, and have since aged out of this grouping.
That said, it may well be Minneapolis beats Pittsburgh regarding the aggregate percentage of the population which is millennial overall, by at least a few percent. Still, Pittsburgh has been having more rapid growth of younger people with four-year degrees than Minneapolis in recent years.
Haha. So many excuses. Also, why is it okay for you to use dated information?
I think this is partly the nature of using streetview to look at a city you don't know very well. For example I know almost nothing about the layout of Pittsburgh, these are the first places I randomly looked at, they all look like they are relatively close in, but I wouldn't characterize any of them as super dense and urban (although I know that exists in Pittsburgh):
The first is actually a very vibrant business district in a rapidly gentrifying neighborhood I lived in for seven years. I actually lived two blocks from there. That's just a bad block due to the car dealership and parking lots. if you go down a few blocks it gets better.
The second was never developed to a great extent due to topographical issues.
The third is the heart of the historic black neighborhood of Pittsburgh. Urban renewal, riots, fires, and general abandonment have not been kind to it. Wylie Avenue used to be the central business corridor for the neighborhood, and looked like this in its heyday
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drewcifer
Anyway, here are the most urban parts of the Minneapolis cbd.
Objectively Minneapolis is HALF a step above Pittsburgh.
Basically it comes down to the flavor you're looking for.
Do you want a modern, Midwestern (with a dash of west coast), car focused city? Or do you want a traditionally built, NE light (with a dash of Appalachian & Midwest), and compact city?
Pittsburgh can be filled with gray skies while Minneapolis can be eyelash freezing cold.
Typical Pittsburgh person is blunt and loyal.
Typical Minneapolis person is polite and a tad stand offish.
Your upward mobility is better in Minneapolis.
In most of the categories the cities are to close to call.
Subjectively I prefer Pittsburgh due to the architecture, landscape, and compact core making it (arguably) a better walking city.
Objectively Minneapolis is HALF a step above Pittsburgh.
Basically it comes down to the flavor you're looking for.
Do you want a modern, Midwestern (with a dash of west coast), car focused city? Or do you want a traditionally built, NE light (with a dash of Appalachian & Midwest), and compact city?
Pittsburgh can be filled with gray skies while Minneapolis can be eyelash freezing cold.
Typical Pittsburgh person is blunt and loyal.
Typical Minneapolis person is polite and a tad stand offish.
Your upward mobility is better in Minneapolis.
In most of the categories the cities are to close to call.
Subjectively I prefer Pittsburgh due to the architecture, landscape, and compact core making it (arguably) a better walking city.
I won't argue weather. Pittsburgh is hardly a paradise, but I will certainly concede that most people would prefer Pittsburgh's climate to that of Minneapolis. As a matter of personal opinion, I also think Pittsburgh has one of the most interesting cityscapes in the country. However, I would suggest that objective assessment of the two cities yields a strong advantage for Minneapolis in most categories.
Given the actual question in the OP, there is absolutely nothing wrong with someone preferring Pittsburgh over Minneapolis. I used to live in Boston, but I prefer Minneapolis. However, I would never suggest that Minneapolis is at the same level as is Boston when judged by objective criteria. Likewise, Pittsburgh simply doesn't match up to Minneapolis in that regard.
The term "punches above its weight" is often used in these forums. This, of course refers to a city which exceeds expectations in some category, as compared to its population.
Let's look at this in terms of metro economy:
Global 2000 Corporations:
Minneapolis: 14 companies spread across 7 GIC sectors, 397 billion dollars in combined revenue
Pittsburgh: 7 companies in 5 GIC sectors, 76 billion dollars in combined revenue
Pittsburgh is the twenty-third largest metro in The US. It also has the twenty-third highest metropolitan GDP. It is certainly impressive that a traditional Rust Belt city can maintain a GDP rank equivalent to its size, particularly when one considers all of the burgeoning cities in The Sunbelt and The West. However, in this respect, Pittsburgh merely punches at its weight.
Minneapolis is the sixteenth largest metro, but the thirteenth largest GDP. So Minneapolis actually does punch above its weight--leapfrogging three larger metros (two of them in The Sunbelt) in regards to GDP.
Minneapolis also has a lower unemployment rate (June, 2015 numbers): Minneapolis, 3.5 percent--Pittsburgh, 4.6 percent
Fine arts (museums, theaters, orchestras, etc):
MSP is the only metro outside of NY with two orchestras which are classified as "major" by the American League of Symphony Orchestras. Let's just compare The Minnesota Orchestra to The Pittsburgh Symphony. They both have similar budgets (a bit over thirty million annually), however, The MO has done considerably more recording and international touring than has The PSO--both throughout its history, and over the last decade. A search of music critic reviews of recent (last decade) recordings and concert appearances makes it fairly obvious that The Minnesota Orchestra is held in higher national and international esteem. And, again, The St Paul Chamber Orchestra (the only full-time chamber orchestra in the country), though not as eminent as the MO or PSO, is also in the same metro area.
Minneapolis is one of two cities in the country to have its theaters win at least three Regional Tony Awards (Chicago is the other city). This includes awards given to The Guthrie Theater--one of the most respected repertory theaters in the world, and to The Children's Theater Company--the largest children's theater in North America. No Pittsburgh theater has ever won a Regional Tony.
The Minneapolis Institute of Arts has a permanent collection which is well over twice the size of that in The Carnegie Museum of Art. A respective perusal of the catalogues of the two institutions yields little doubt that the collection at The MIA is more comprehensive and more renowned than the collection at The Carnegie. The MIA isn't even the most prominent art museum in Minneapolis. The Walker Art Center is internationally renowned for its collection of modern art, as well as for its ongoing programs of interdisciplinarity arts. It is also adjacent to the largest urban sculpture park in the country.
Dance USA ranked Minneapolis fifth (by number of dance companies with budgets over $100,00) behind only NY, LA, CHI, and BOS.
A 2013 study found Minneapolis to have the sixth largest overall arts economy in the country, behind DC, NY, BOS ,SF, and LA.
Urbanity by objective numbers:
Minneapolis population density: 7417/sq mi
Pittsburgh population density: 5540/ sq mi
MSP UA population: 2.651 million
PIT UA population: 1.734 million
MSP UA density: 2594/ sq mi
PIT UA density: 1916/ sq mi
Minneapolis Walk Score: 65
Pittsburgh Walk Score: 60
Minneapolis: 16.282 million total passenger boardings-intercontinental nonstop flights to London, Paris, Tokyo, Frankfurt, Amsterdam, and Reykjavik.
Pittsburgh: 3.813 million total passenger boardings--a seasonal flight to Paris.
Pittsburgh is a great city, and it stands as a shining example of a how a city can reinvent itself. If I were looking to move to a smaller major city, Pittsburgh would be near the top of my list. However, it simply isn't in the same category as is Minneapolis in terms of urban amenities, attractions, and options.
Objectively Minneapolis is HALF a step above Pittsburgh.
Basically it comes down to the flavor you're looking for.
Do you want a modern, Midwestern (with a dash of west coast), car focused city? Or do you want a traditionally built, NE light (with a dash of Appalachian & Midwest), and compact city?
Pittsburgh can be filled with gray skies while Minneapolis can be eyelash freezing cold.
Typical Pittsburgh person is blunt and loyal.
Typical Minneapolis person is polite and a tad stand offish.
Your upward mobility is better in Minneapolis.
In most of the categories the cities are to close to call.
Subjectively I prefer Pittsburgh due to the architecture, landscape, and compact core making it (arguably) a better walking city.
Compact Core? Minneapolis still wins out. Look at the population within .5, 2, 2.5, etc... radius of the central core and Minneapolis still tops Pittsburgh. Yes eschaton, I'm going off 2010 numbers, but they are official and most accurate (you posted a Census info from 2010 on page 6).
BTW, I'm willing to bet over half the people voting for Pittsburgh have never stepped foot in Minneapolis - St. Paul.
Last edited by YIMBY; 06-17-2015 at 01:23 AM..
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Yeah, let's pretend St. Paul doesn't exist right next to Minneapolis and doesn't function as a central city. BTW, I did include Minneapolis only numbers.
