Washington DC, Miami/Fort Lauderdale, Dallas/Fort Worth, Houston, and Atlanta: Rank 1-5 Most-to-Least Southern (live, state)
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If it was so painful for me to accept that Jax has southern characteristics then I wouldn't say "Florida city with southern traits." I don't know why you and other posters insist that it has no components of Florida culture, yet even worse that ignorantly say that Florida has no culture or it's the same as southern culture.
It's painful for you to accept that Jacksonville is actually a Southern city, not that it simply has Southern characteristics or "undertones." I've never insisted that it "has no components of Florida culture," but to somehow say that this makes it unsouthern is silly.
Jacksonville is Floridian and Southern; they are not mutually exclusive.
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But by your logic, it seems every city in the south US displays southern culture. If that's the case then I guess Miami, Naples, El Paso, and Brownsville all have "southern culture."
It's a matter of degree. I'm not calling any of those other cities culturally Southern. Jacksonville is, though. The city actually has as much or more Confederate monuments and schools, roads, etc. named after Confederate figures than Atlanta. https://www.dailydot.com/irl/confederate-monuments-map/
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What people nickname or label as city really has no meaning in reality.
So the fact that city leaders nicknamed the city "Bold New City of the South" has no meaning in reality? Oh okay.
If people from Oklahoma, Texas, New Orleans, or NoVA don't consider themselves southern, then don't label them or insist that they are southern, they know their own culture better than you. Unless you've lived in these places, you really have no right telling them what "culture" they area.
As for your Miami input, it's based off hearsay from a friend on vacation, again no merit with your input.
See, I don't really do the whole culture thing to start off. I go by geography first then culture. Example: The Appalachian folk in TN may have more in common with someone from rural Appalachian Oh or PA but guess what? They are still from the geographic South. Simple. Any state can say that they have things that just makes them say that their state is their own thing but a state fits into a larger region.
Your purely saying this as a Southerner yourself. If people of certain cities or areas don't identify with the South (culturally) then that's all it is. Theres hard evidence of how places like DC/Nova have strayed from what is considered culturally Southern. Perhaps the bigger question for you is why all of the regions have this aversion to not be labeled as Southern.. if we include the areas you are talking about then that alone covers every region outside of the West.
Well, I was born and partially raised metro ATL. 1 parent's from the Midwest and the other from the Northeast. I lived in GA,VA, MD, and CT. Some of my Upstate NY family live central FL. Growing up I'd always spend time (every year) back in my parent's stomping grounds enough to get a good feel of the place.
Well, I was born and partially raised metro ATL. 1 parent's from the Midwest and the other from the Northeast. I lived in GA,VA, MD, and CT. Some of my Upstate NY family live central FL. Growing up I'd always spend time (every year) back in my parent's stomping grounds enough to get a good feel of the place.
I was going by your profile which shows mostly Atlanta outside of CvC and the Gen forum.
I was going by your profile which shows mostly Atlanta outside of CvC and the Gen forum.
Yeah, well ATL is the home base for me but City-Data forum stats aren't the best way to gauge a person thoroughly.
I divulged some of my background because my experiences with people from different regions makes me wary of those from other areas of the South trying to move away from it. I acknowledge the nuances of other places but given my background I can't help but call BS on certain claims.
I get what Big Blue is saying in about FL being this amalgamation of cultures because my city and background has some similarities but I just look at it as adding to the region. That's all, many may disagree but that's fine.
It's painful for you to accept that Jacksonville is actually a Southern city, not that it simply has Southern characteristics or "undertones." I've never insisted that it "has no components of Florida culture," but to somehow say that this makes it unsouthern is silly.
Jacksonville is Floridian and Southern; they are not mutually exclusive.
It's a matter of degree. I'm not calling any of those other cities culturally Southern. Jacksonville is, though. The city actually has as much or more Confederate monuments and schools, roads, etc. named after Confederate figures than Atlanta. https://www.dailydot.com/irl/confederate-monuments-map/
So the fact that city leaders nicknamed the city "Bold New City of the South" has no meaning in reality? Oh okay.
You called Jax a southern city, that's basically indicating that it's almost 100% southern culture with little to no Florida culture.
You are labeling cities based on location, yet you argued with me when I called Jax a Florida city and insist it's a southern city.
In addition to confederate names, monuments, etc., the Jax metro has a lot of Spanish names for streets, schools, and housing developments due to it's history. Does that makes Jax a Spanish city as well? No. As for the confederate names, the Confederacy became obsolete in 1865, so it should have little or nothing to do with today's culture in the area.
Tampa has the largest confederate flag in the nation, does that make Tampa a southern city exclusively?
As a FL resident, Florida culture and southern culture are mutually exclusive in my opinion. I've given you my reasoning as to why. Jax is a Florida city with southern tones or you can call it a mix of Florida and southern culture if that suits you better.
You're entitled to your opinion, but unless you've lived in Jax, I don't find any merit in your argument.
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Originally Posted by 80s_kid
See, I don't really do the whole culture thing to start off. I go by geography first then culture. Example: The Appalachian folk in TN may have more in common with someone from rural Appalachian Oh or PA but guess what? They are still from the geographic South. Simple. Any state can say that they have things that just makes them say that their state is their own thing but a state fits into a larger region.
I think what this comes down to is that southern culture isn't monolithic and distinct. When you think about are the Appalachian folk in TN culturally similar to the people in costal South Carolina? Are the people in the gulf region of Mississippi culturally similar to the people residing in Ozarks of Arkansas? Probably not, although I've never lived or spent time in either so I can't say for sure. Either way, makes this debate futile in my opinion if there isn't "one southern culture" to begin with.
Last edited by BigBlue123; 12-28-2017 at 04:38 PM..
Yeah, well ATL is the home base for me but City-Data forum stats aren't the best way to gauge a person thoroughly.
I divulged some of my background because my experiences with people from different regions makes me wary of those from other areas of the South trying to move away from it. I acknowledge the nuances of other places but given my background I can't help but call BS on certain claims.
I get what Big Blue is saying in about FL being this amalgamation of cultures because my city and background has some similarities but I just look at it as adding to the region. That's all, many may disagree but that's fine.
I understand. I've lived in every region of the lower 48 and am originally from the DC area. I find it strange when someone tries to say DC is Southern culturally purely by it's history or least the area or by census designation. Anyone from here or has at least spent some time will know it really has little in common culturally with the "South".
You called Jax a southern city, that's basically indicating that it's almost 100% southern culture with little to no Florida culture.
ABSOLUTELY not. This is a very incorrect assumption you have made...actually it's more like a strawman.
I have said more than one time in this thread that it's possible for a city to be Southern and possess other types of regional/cultural traits. That's true for Texas (Houston area and east Texas at least), south Louisiana, the GA/SC Lowcountry, etc. Southern culture itself isn't monolithic so it's quite reasonable to expect this, especially for Southern border cities.
It is wholly possible for Jacksonville to be Southern and characteristically Floridian (which varies within itself as well) at the same time. Just because key lime pie is a "thing" in Jacksonville doesn't mean that pecan pie isn't also. Just because there's Spanish influenced architecture doesn't also mean there aren't several early 20th century craftsman neighborhoods...and so on. If you look at the vernacular maps I linked to earlier, several of them have Jacksonville near that zone where Southern and south central/south Florida vernaculars start bleeding into each other. That's a good depiction of how Jax can be both Southern and Floridian at once.
ABSOLUTELY not. This is a very incorrect assumption you have made...actually it's more like a strawman.
I have said more than one time in this thread that it's possible for a city to be Southern and possess other types of regional/cultural traits. That's true for Texas (Houston area and east Texas at least), south Louisiana, the GA/SC Lowcountry, etc. Southern culture itself isn't monolithic so it's quite reasonable to expect this, especially for Southern border cities.
It is wholly possible for Jacksonville to be Southern and characteristically Floridian (which varies within itself as well) at the same time. Just because key lime pie is a "thing" in Jacksonville doesn't mean that pecan pie isn't also. Just because there's Spanish influenced architecture doesn't also mean there aren't several early 20th century craftsman neighborhoods...and so on. If you look at the vernacular maps I linked to earlier, several of them have Jacksonville near that zone where Southern and south central/south Florida vernaculars start bleeding into each other. That's a good depiction of how Jax can be both Southern and Floridian at once.
When someone is refers to "southern city," I think of a cities like Memphis, Birmingham, Charleston, Charlotte, where "southern culture" is the norm. Not cities like Jacksonville, Houston, Dallas, Oklahoma City, and DC where southern culture is either mixed or overshadowed by the state or another regional culture.
There has been previous threads on this topic if you do a search. Many Florida residents will tell you that Jax has southern culture and is indeed more southern than the rest of Florida, but not southern to the extent of neighboring state cities like Savannah and Mobile, as I was stating earlier.
I looked up "Bold New City of the South." That quote was used for a campaign in the 1960s for Jax to annex the entire Duval County in order to prevent white flight. So this quote really had nothing to do with Jax southerness. That was back when Miami, Orlando, and the rest of Florida were rapidly growing in population and development before current Florida culture was developed and intertwined with the north region. If that was today I would bet money it would be "Bold New City of Florida." (and the quora posters of this topic who reside in Jax admitted they don't really see it apply to this day in age either).
But then again, southern culture is not monolithic and probably none of these posters have ever lived or spent significant time in all of these cities to make a valid conclusion, so that makes all these threads and debates futile in the end.
BTW, key lime pie is more popular than pecan pie here, and is always a staple on a restaurant dessert menu.
Last edited by BigBlue123; 12-28-2017 at 08:41 PM..
When someone is refers to "southern city," I think of a cities like Memphis, Birmingham, Charleston, Charlotte, where "southern culture" is the norm. Not cities like Jacksonville, Houston, Dallas, Oklahoma City, and DC where southern culture is either mixed or overshadowed by the state or another regional culture.
Well that's you. I and plenty of other people have absolutely no problem using that term to refer to the last set of cities. Everyone doesn't think like you and you shouldn't assume that everyone does.
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There has been previous threads on this topic if you do a search. Many Florida residents will tell you that Jax has southern culture and is indeed more southern than the rest of Florida, but not southern to the extent of neighboring state cities like Savannah and Mobile, as I was stating earlier.
I never said Jacksonville is the most Southern city out there, but it's a Southern city.
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I looked up "Bold New City of the South." That quote was used for a campaign in the 1960s for Jax to annex the entire Duval County in order to prevent white flight. So this quote really had nothing to do with Jax southerness. That was back when Miami, Orlando, and the rest of Florida were rapidly growing in population and development before current Florida culture was developed and intertwined with the north region. If that was today I would bet money it would be "Bold New City of Florida." (and the quora posters of this topic who reside in Jax admitted they don't really see it apply to this day in age either).
A city that doesn't even identify with being Southern would have never chosen that as a nickname; that's my only point. You're trying to make this about "degrees" of Southernness which is a strawman.
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But then again, southern culture is not monolithic and probably none of these posters have ever lived or spent significant time in all of these cities to make a valid conclusion, so that makes all these threads and debates futile in the end.
BTW, key lime pie is more popular than pecan pie here, and is always a staple on a restaurant dessert menu.
Thank you for reiterating my point that Southern culture is not monolithic. Therefore, it's wholly possible for Jacksonville to be a Southern city within a Floridian context.
I said I wasn't even going to go down this road in discussing a city that's not part of the topic, but oh well. We'll see if the posts remain or the thread just gets locked.
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