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Sure, but Jazz is still original music attached to a specific city and its black community. As long as you can do that, it still applies.
You could say the same or similar things in terms of Rap/Hip Hop with NYC, House with Chicago and perhaps Techno and Jit with Detroit in terms of attachment to the black communities in those cities.
Some of that could also be familiarity with the genre of music in a general sense as well.
Do you know if Jazz is the official music of New Orleans? It would be interesting to compare the Black Jazz scene of New Orleans to DC’s Black Broadway in the early 20th century from 1910-1940’s. Especially for venues that catered to Black audiences.
I don’t think there is an agreed upon definition. Race is so polarizing in America and culture for Black Americans is tied to their skin color instead of their tribe or country of origin which is why this is so difficult. Even in this thread, there is disagreement about what being Black American is and they aren’t wrong.
DC’s Black local culture is tied to the music and neighborhoods that exist in DC. The food culture is from the southern roots of the families that migrated to DC during the great migration, but GoGo and in 2022 to a lesser extent the clothes and lingo is home grown in DC. If you asked this question in 2002, the clothes and lingo would be DC through and through with only local brands and entrepreneurs before Black people in DC became Americanized through social media. So maybe DC is one of the few places that has a Black American local culture that is indigenize to them and no place else?
White DC residents don't have that connection, but they respect it. Our pro teams embrace it and DC's official music legally is GoGo music.
So let's start off with the definition of culture:
Quote:
1.
the arts and other manifestations of human intellectual achievement regarded collectively.
2.
the customs, arts, social institutions, and achievements of a particular nation, people, or other social group.
Now that we know what the general definition of culture is, let's look at the general definition of African- American culture.
Quote:
African-American culture refers to the contributions of African Americans to the culture of the United States, either as part of or distinct from mainstream American culture. The culture is both distinct and enormously influential on American and global worldwide culture as a whole.
African-American culture is a blend between the native African cultures of West Africa and Central Africa and the European culture that has influenced and modified its development in the American South. Understanding its identity within the culture of the United States, that is, in the anthropological sense, conscious of its origins as largely a blend of West and Central African cultures. Although slavery greatly restricted the ability for Africans to practice their original cultural traditions, many practices, values and beliefs survived, and over time have modified and/or blended with European cultures and other cultures such as that of Native Americans. African-American identity was established during the period of slavery, producing a dynamic culture that has had and continues to have a profound impact on American culture as a whole, as well as that of the broader world.
After emancipation, unique African-American traditions have continued to flourish, as distinctive traditions or radical innovations in music, art, literature, religion, cuisine, and other fields. 20th-century sociologists, such as Gunnar Myrdal, believed that African-Americans had lost most of their cultural ties with Africa.[6] But, anthropological field research by Melville Herskovits and others demonstrated that there has been a continuum of African traditions among Africans of the diaspora.[7] The greatest influence of African cultural practices on European culture is found below the Mason-Dixon line in the American South.
For many years African-American culture developed separately from American culture, due to enslavement, racial discrimination, and the persistence of African-Americans to make and maintain their own traditions. Today, African-American culture has influenced American culture and yet still remains a distinct cultural body.[10]
African-American culture is part of the culture of the Southern United States. Black American food and language is influenced by white Southerners who enslaved them on plantations in the South.
It's really not as complicated as you're making it out to be. The problem with people having a hard time understanding what our culture is even amongst Black Americans is the fact that it boils down to our experiences as Black people here in America. Unlike other African people in the Diaspora( with the exception of Latin America, South America, Canada) we live in a predominately White society that formed many of their beliefs about Black Americans from a White Supremacist perspective. So the mainstream consensus for the longest time throughout our existence here in America is that Black Americans are too inferior of a "race" to even have a culture. And when we did make our own cultural contributions to American society as a whole, it was often co-opted, appropriated and repacked for predominately White spaces all throughout America.
Our cultural contributions and our very own distinct culture separate from everyone else didn't even get taken seriously till post civil rights era. So we're talking serious studies and discussion on Black American culture from the mid to late 60s up until NOW. Most of our ancestors been on this land since it was 12 British colonies Brah.
Hell, America generally didn't even acknowledge we HAD A DISTINCT culture to the Harlem Renaissance. Before then, literally in the 1800's during slavery and into the reconstruction era America overwhelmingly mocked our culture thru Minstrel shows. Minstrel shows were the first time many White Americans saw Black American "culture" outside of slavery. Think about that, these were White actors playing exaggerated degrading caricatures of African Americans. We didn't create those things even if later generations of Black people would reinforce those stereotypes created by White Americans. Which is one of the reasons I'm not a fan of some of Tyler Perry's content.
You understand the concept of Black culture from a regional perspective but somehow can't grasp the concept on a national level as a designated ethnic group. See that's why I asked you to give me a description of D.C.'s black culture. I knew you could do that just based off your prior comments on D.C.'s local Black community.
There's a root Black American culture that is distinct from everybody else in this country. That despite some regional differences we share similarities with one another because of this root. Of course cultures start to modify and vary based on regions but the root of our culture still exist. I've traveled all over this country, talked to many Black people from D.C. to Alabama to Nebraska to Connecticut and so forth. Black folks have their own distinct dialects, slang, fashion etc., foods, etc. from one another but the root is still there.
Agreed, but Black New Orleans residents don’t own Jazz the way Black DC residents own GoGo. I feel like Jazz is more associated with New Orleans the city than the Black people that live there unlike GoGo which is associated with the Black people who live in the DC area. I don’t think people associate GoGo with other races from DC.
I also think your looking at this the wrong way. The origins of Jazz took place in the late 19th and early 20th century. Go-Go was born around the mid 60s to the late 70s. Jazz as we know it today formed throughout many different parts of the country and by many different countries. Yes, New Orleans doesn't "OWN" Jazz the way Black D.C. "owns" GoGo but that's because they formed completely different than one another.
The origins of Jazz pretty much stems from a variation of Black styles of music, song and dance prior to it's creation. So blues, spirituals, hymns, ragtimes, African and slave folk songs helped developed the sound of Jazz. Also of course you had Black people playing European instruments with an African/ Slave interpretation of classical European and American music.
GoGo essentially is a subgenre of Funk music with some gospel elements and clearly has West African roots (like most of all Black music). Jazz musicians from the it's earliest inception performed in front of White crowds. GoGo for a long time was restricted primarily to D.C. local Black community.
Jazz traveled throughout America and took on many different forms. It reached everybody despite color and that's probably because the root of Jazz music has many different influences that were strictly interpreted by African Americans. I'm pretty sure the European instruments and the sound of it resonates with a wider audience more so than the sound of GoGo music.
Also, even though GoGo is known nationally it still has a localized following unlike Jazz. Not to mention the White/Black dynamic in D.C. is a lot different than New Orleans White/Black relationship. D.C. is a lot more of a transient city than New Orleans ever was so maybe that's why even local White D.C. residents hadn't really caught on to GoGo music like that. Even the rest of Black America hasn't really caught on to GoGo music like that. Aside from Chuck Brown "Bustin Loose" or "Doin the Butt" it hasn't gained a ton of national mainstream success.
You said my question earlier about Du Bois being from New England was problematic, but you just said during a discussion with people, you would know where they were from by talking to them or finding out what music they like etc. etc. etc. That also depends on whether they are active participants in Black American culture. If a Black American listens to classical music, hates soul/southern food, and doesn’t identify with any other things Black Americans identify with, are they still Black American? I'm reminded of this Fresh Prince of Bel Air episode below. What is Black American culture? Is classical music part of Black American culture?
my haitian cousin married an african-american and moved to atlanta (they both had blended familys and eventually divorced). i met her 2wice. she is very religious and talked about her mega-church and pastor sometimes (i forget which one but i felt like i was in a tyler perry episode). my family is sorta'-catholic and attend mass for weddings and new years then eat joumou. she said that kanaval and dancehall music is stank and slack but didnt have the same static for lil' kim and 2-live-crew...
i learned what the word tithe means from her. her and her mother were having a discussion about tithing and i felt like i would be labeled a heathen if i asked 'whats that ?'.
during the wedding the older folks on my half of the family were confused by the jumping the broom ceremony.
Last edited by stanley-88888888; 10-14-2022 at 06:31 AM..
my haitian cousin married an african-american and moved to atlanta (they both had blended familys and eventually divorced). i met her 2wice. she is very religious and talked about her mega-church and pastor sometimes (i forget which one but i felt like i was in a tyler perry episode). my family is sorta'-catholic and attend mass for weddings and new years then eat joumou. she said that kanaval and dancehall music is stank and slack but didnt have the same static for lil' kim and 2-live-crew...
i learned what the word tithe means from her. her and her mother were having a discussion about tithing and i felt like i would be labeled a heathen if i asked 'whats that ?'.
during the wedding the older folks on my half of the family were confused by the jumping the broom ceremony.
So let's start off with the definition of culture:
Now that we know what the general definition of culture is, let's look at the general definition of African- American culture.
It's really not as complicated as you're making it out to be. The problem with people having a hard time understanding what our culture is even amongst Black Americans is the fact that it boils down to our experiences as Black people here in America. Unlike other African people in the Diaspora( with the exception of Latin America, South America, Canada) we live in a predominately White society that formed many of their beliefs about Black Americans from a White Supremacist perspective. So the mainstream consensus for the longest time throughout our existence here in America is that Black Americans are too inferior of a "race" to even have a culture. And when we did make our own cultural contributions to American society as a whole, it was often co-opted, appropriated and repacked for predominately White spaces all throughout America.
Our cultural contributions and our very own distinct culture separate from everyone else didn't even get taken seriously till post civil rights era. So we're talking serious studies and discussion on Black American culture from the mid to late 60s up until NOW. Most of our ancestors been on this land since it was 12 British colonies Brah.
Hell, America generally didn't even acknowledge we HAD A DISTINCT culture to the Harlem Renaissance. Before then, literally in the 1800's during slavery and into the reconstruction era America overwhelmingly mocked our culture thru Minstrel shows. Minstrel shows were the first time many White Americans saw Black American "culture" outside of slavery. Think about that, these were White actors playing exaggerated degrading caricatures of African Americans. We didn't create those things even if later generations of Black people would reinforce those stereotypes created by White Americans. Which is one of the reasons I'm not a fan of some of Tyler Perry's content.
You understand the concept of Black culture from a regional perspective but somehow can't grasp the concept on a national level as a designated ethnic group. See that's why I asked you to give me a description of D.C.'s black culture. I knew you could do that just based off your prior comments on D.C.'s local Black community.
There's a root Black American culture that is distinct from everybody else in this country. That despite some regional differences we share similarities with one another because of this root. Of course cultures start to modify and vary based on regions but the root of our culture still exist. I've traveled all over this country, talked to many Black people from D.C. to Alabama to Nebraska to Connecticut and so forth. Black folks have their own distinct dialects, slang, fashion etc., foods, etc. from one another but the root is still there.
It ain't as complex as people make it out to be.
When we like cultural entertainment and aspects, we can name the country, tribe, city it is from.
“I’m eating Italian food.”
“I’m eating Ethiopian food.”
“I’m eating a Philly cheese steak.”
“I’m listening to reggae which is from Jamaica.”
“I’m listening to soca which is from Trinidad.”
“I’m listening to baliwood which is from India.”
“I’m listening to GoGo which is from Washington D.C.”
A lot of cultural entertainment and aspects has an origin like those listed above. Many of the things we’re talking about don’t have an origin that is known. I think origin matters in culture because that is where respect begins. You make many great points, but you also failed to describe Black America culture. The things I just named are an accurate description of the culture from those places.
If you had to describe Black American culture like you would Nigerian culture, what would you say? Even your description you posted didn’t describe Black American culture, it talked about the things that influenced it.
Last edited by MDAllstar; 10-14-2022 at 10:22 AM..
When we like cultural entertainment, we can name the country, tribe, city it is from.
“I’m eating Italian food.”
“I’m eating Ethiopian food.”
“I’m listening to reggae which is from Jamaica.”
“I’m listening to soca which is from Trinidad.”
“I’m listening to baliwood which is from India.”
“I’m listening to GoGo which is from Washington D.C.”
A lot of cultural entertainment has an origin like those listed above. Many of the things we’re talking about don’t have an origin that is known. I think origin matters in culture because that is where respect begins.
What are you- and I do mean you talking about that has an unknown origin?
Also still not really sure what this has to do with "most diverse black populations?" this seems pretty far removed from the topic.
Like...Are you saying there need to be diverse cultural contributions for the population to count as diverse? I'm trying to leave room for B.O.D. where this isnt is more runway to talk about DC culture and/or GoGo..
Is Go Go even relevant anymore? The most popular bands today are still the ones that were popular in the early 80, 90s and early 00s and those guys are all over 50 or close to it. Big G from Backyard is 51.
It seems to be a genre that will mostly die off with Gen X and maybe some older Millennials. There aren't any bands to replace EU, Rare Essence and Backyard and certainly no bands that enjoyed the popularity those bands did in their heyday. In that sense, it won't be as long lasting as the influence of NOLA second line bands.
I also think your looking at this the wrong way. The origins of Jazz took place in the late 19th and early 20th century. Go-Go was born around the mid 60s to the late 70s. Jazz as we know it today formed throughout many different parts of the country and by many different countries. Yes, New Orleans doesn't "OWN" Jazz the way Black D.C. "owns" GoGo but that's because they formed completely different than one another.
The origins of Jazz pretty much stems from a variation of Black styles of music, song and dance prior to it's creation. So blues, spirituals, hymns, ragtimes, African and slave folk songs helped developed the sound of Jazz. Also of course you had Black people playing European instruments with an African/ Slave interpretation of classical European and American music.
GoGo essentially is a subgenre of Funk music with some gospel elements and clearly has West African roots (like most of all Black music). Jazz musicians from the it's earliest inception performed in front of White crowds. GoGo for a long time was restricted primarily to D.C. local Black community.
Jazz traveled throughout America and took on many different forms. It reached everybody despite color and that's probably because the root of Jazz music has many different influences that were strictly interpreted by African Americans. I'm pretty sure the European instruments and the sound of it resonates with a wider audience more so than the sound of GoGo music.
Also, even though GoGo is known nationally it still has a localized following unlike Jazz. Not to mention the White/Black dynamic in D.C. is a lot different than New Orleans White/Black relationship. D.C. is a lot more of a transient city than New Orleans ever was so maybe that's why even local White D.C. residents hadn't really caught on to GoGo music like that. Even the rest of Black America hasn't really caught on to GoGo music like that. Aside from Chuck Brown "Bustin Loose" or "Doin the Butt" it hasn't gained a ton of national mainstream success.
This is exactly why I said Black Americans in DC may be one of the few if not only group to have their own distinct culture indigenous to their city and community alone. If something wasn’t made for you and enjoyed by you alone before if was exported outward to other places or audiences, how can you claim it?
Traditions and culture from tribes in Africa were started by that tribe and enjoyed by that tribe alone before that culture was exported outward to other places and audiences.
Is Go Go even relevant anymore? The most popular bands today are still the ones that were popular in the early 80, 90s and early 00s and those guys are all over 50 or close to it. Big G from Backyard is 51.
It seems to be a genre that will mostly die off with Gen X and maybe some older Millennials. There aren't any bands to replace EU, Rare Essence and Backyard and certainly no bands that enjoyed the popularity those bands did in their heyday. In that sense, it won't be as long lasting as the influence of NOLA second line bands.
I don't expect you to know this because you haven't lived in DC for decades and know little about gogo to begin with, but Gen X listens to bounce beat GoGo. Some Gen X like crank too though. If you still lived in DC, you would know this just by riding the metro since they play it on their phones for the whole train car to hear daily...
And Beat your feat is still going strong too. There are more bands now than when I was a kid because the older bands still play and the new bands play. Gogo is more dynamic now than it ever was with different subgenres. I'm not going to post them all because there are already 6 YouTube videos on this post at this point.
Last edited by MDAllstar; 10-14-2022 at 11:05 AM..
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