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Stop calling places that aren’t Boston Boston. It’s erroneous Cambridge Somerville Brookline have very different laws, politics, histories, government structures, culture and demographics. If they were non descriptive places that operated under a single county government-okay. But they’re not. You’re literally tossing in two counties on top of Suffolk county just for the sake of argument. So let’s give it a rest.
It’s embarrassing that ppl on CD can only make up for Bostons shortcoming by tossing in towns and cities that aren’t Boston and have very clear definite boundaries. You can’t just add in 300k ppl onto a 700k person city. It’s ridiculous. They have to work with Chicago. We have to work with BOSTON.
There, now debate from there.
I'm going to have to disagree on this one
... using arbitrary "city-proper" boundaries is disingenuous way of comparing cities, which is why most C-D users use urban area/metro to compare amenities as it's unbiassed, and creates a substantially more fair comparison
Cambridge, Somerville & Brookline are part of Bostons immediate urban fabric & sphere of influence, not independent of it. It's no different than putting Miami Beach under the umbrella of Miami, or Arlington & Pentagon City under DC. They are all part of the same immediate greater urban area and function in unison with it, so no it's not disingenuous to include them in conversion.
So unless we are going to say Jacksonville is a "bigger" city than places like Miami, Seattle, SF, DC, Atlanta, Boston, Denver, Baltimore etc.. etc.. because it uses arbitrary boarders that cover 747 sq/mi, then the debate should stop here.
That being said Boston functions, feels and a behaves like a metro 1/2 Chicago's size should.
Cambridge, Somerville & Brookline are part of Bostons immediate urban fabric & sphere of influence, not independent of it. It's no different than putting Miami Beach under the umbrella of Miami, or Arlington & Pentagon City under DC. They are all part of the same immediate greater urban area and function in unison with it, so no it's not disingenuous to include them in conversion.
Eh. Comparing Cambridge to Miami Beach or Pentagon City is a bit disingenuous. It takes about 12min to walk across the widest part of the Charles River, whereas (at least according to Google Maps) it takes at least an hour to walk from DC and Miami to Pentagon City and Miami Beach respectively.
The distance between Georgetown and Rosslyn is kind of similar to that between Boston and Cambridge, but on the whole Boston and Cambridge are far more connected than DC and Arlington.
Because Chicago and other areas are built to incorporate far flung areas into the city and make them feel a a part of the city.Chicago is bult in a way that of course South Lawndale feels a aprt of chicago 100% and its grid and rail system make iit integrated into the urban network. I Cambridge was built and founded to feel and be like Cambridge-not Boston. understand this is lost on most people here but it is truth. We all get the proximity argument and most people agree with you. But its an overly simplistic view of historical municipal boundaries IMO
What does Chicago feel like because the South Side And North Sides of Chicago are much more different from each other than say Dorchester and Everett/Chelsea. Or are from each other. Same with Revere and Roslindale.
I understand what you are saying as Chicago is a city of many villages and suburbs that are essentailly neighborhoods, we also have areas that are completely surrounded by Chicago such as Norridge yet aren't incorporated. To answer your question if the West Loop was it's own municiplaity than I wouldn't count it as being Chicago. Just like Oak Park and Evanston now. Norridge is completely surronded by Chicago on all sides yet isn't incorporated. I don't know another city that has more "villages" and towns/suburbs than Chicago. We could have well over 3 million easily if these border burbs that are totally Chicago in terms of proximity, urban form and culturally were incorporated.
Long Island isn't NYC and Oakland isn't San Francisco.
Having lived in Norridge some decades ago. Norridge has a adjoining suburb directly to its east - Harwood Heights. They both together then are surrounded by Chicago proper.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IronWright
This is exactly what I meant when I said 230 sq. miles compared to 50. In Chicago you can't help but sense how massive it is because the continuity of urbanity and density that radiates for miles and miles from the core. You can be 10 miles from downtown in Rogers Park and you are still very much in the city with 3-flats and row houses densely packed on a grid as well as great prewar architecture, mid/high-rises, parks and retail corridors that feel no different than Logan Square, Bucktown or Wicker Park.
You find more multi-residential connections like these in Rogers Park neighborhood.
But not technically row-homes. You visit Philadelphia ..... you realize what true-row-houses for the whole blocks are. Chicago isn't. Some .... examples never whole blocks.
I still totally understand what you mean though ..... in both post. Just a tad clarification I thought of to post.
What does Chicago feel like because the South Side And North Sides of Chicago are much more different from each other than say Dorchester and Everett/Chelsea. Or are from each other. Same with Revere and Roslindale.
I guess the distinction is that it’s physically harder to get from Dorchester to Everett than from the South Side to the North Side of Chicago.
Edit: Actually, upon further inspection, Everett City Hall is only around a 30 minute walk from Wellington Station. It’s not like the city is super isolated.
I understand what you are saying as Chicago is a city of many villages and suburbs that are essentailly neighborhoods, we also have areas that are completely surrounded by Chicago such as Norridge yet aren't incorporated. To answer your question if the West Loop was it's own municiplaity than I wouldn't count it as being Chicago. Just like Oak Park and Evanston now. Norridge is completely surronded by Chicago on all sides yet isn't incorporated. I don't know another city that has more "villages" and towns/suburbs than Chicago. We could have well over 3 million easily if these border burbs that are totally Chicago in terms of proximity, urban form and culturally were incorporated.
Long Island isn't NYC and Oakland isn't San Francisco.
Have you been to Boston? I’m assuming so..you’re comparing Cambridge that is a 5-10 min walk to the heart of downtown Boston..to Long Island and Oakland that are 30-40+ minute drives..let’s be sensible
Have you been to Boston? I’m assuming so..you’re comparing Cambridge that is a 5-10 min walk to the heart of downtown Boston..to Long Island and Oakland that are 30-40+ minute drives..let’s be sensible
The majority of folks familiar with Boston will continue to use Cambridge and Brookline as part of the Boston vs. discussion. We're talking about arts, music, bars, breweries, local culinary scene, education, employers.. These three (not even including Somerville) come together to form the downtown experience, and are accessible to each other unlike any pairing in North America. Frankly, nobody cares what was decided in the 18th and 19th century when it comes to arbitrary land line. One is surrounded by Boston, literally. The other is separated merely by sidewalks and foot bridges to the heart of their respective downtowns. This is not debatable for us.
If Lincoln Park was a suburb in 1850, and voted not to be Annexed, I'd still include it when talking about Chicago. It's not to boost Boston. It is a fact of life that Cambridge is the heavyweight, large neighborhood of Downtown Boston. Closer than the South End, and in many areas closer to the core than even the Fens. It is as intertwined with downtown as any. Schools have campuses in both, separated only by foot bridge. Commuters live in Boston, and walk 5 minutes to work in Cambridge. Folks live in Cambridge, and take a 4 minute red line ride to the doorstep of work in Boston.
Person A talking to person B
"We went out in Boston last night."
"Oh nice, where abouts?"
"We started in Central, then went to Kendall for a drink, grabbed dinner in the North End, and ended up at West End Johnnies."
Person C talking to Person D
"Where do you live now?"
"Central Square!"
"Do you miss Southie?"
"Central is just way more interesting than Southie. And I can walk to work now."
Cambridge or Boston need not be brought up in these discussions, ever. In Boston, and Cambridge, and Brookline, and even Somerville, you walk and bike and bar hop between different neighborhoods, never being identified by the city themselves. Porter vs. Davis vs. Fenway vs. Southie vs. Washington. When people go/live "downtown", it can mean Cambridge, or Boston, or Brookline (except to the elite, who need Brookline's name brand). But generally, you just say the square/neighborhood, not the city. Nobody bats an eye.
Person A talking to person B
"We went out in Boston last night."
"Oh nice, where abouts?"
"We started in Central, then went to Kendall for a drink, grabbed dinner in the North End, and ended up at West End Johnnies.".
This is the part I totally disagree with. Nobody calls Cambridge Boston, and if they did that would be an instant giveaway they are from out of town. It's "we went to this bar in Cambridge last night". "Downtown" means downtown "Boston". Not Brookline. Not Cambridge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwj119
Which kind of ties back into the original point- Kendall Sq., for example, feels more like Boston than most of Boston.
It what???
I can't think of anyplace in Boston that it really feels like.
I know what you mean. Lived in Brighton 7 years. For the record, I don't think any of this means Brighton is somehow "bad" or "lesser" than other neighborhoods. I actually really liked it there.
I don't think anybody meant it in a derogatory way, but it certainly does have a distinct feel from the rest of the city probably due to being almost cut off by Brookline and being surrounded by BC, BU and Harvard. Very different dynamic over there.
This is the part I totally disagree with. Nobody calls Cambridge Boston, and if they do they are certainly from out of town. It's "we went to this bar in Cambridge last night". "Downtown" means downtown "Boston". Not Brookline. Not Cambridge.
It what???
People hardly call all of Boston Boston. If someone was going to the St Patrick’s day Parade they would say I’m going to Southie. If they were going to The Reggie Lewis Center they would say I’m going to Roxbury. “Boston” usually refers to only the parts of the city that never belonged to another municipality. Eg. Between the Charlesgate Park, I 90 and Fort Pt.
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