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St. Louis and Cincinnati areas are both a mixed bag. You get everything from the northern big city feel (and dialects for that matter) to the pretty much traditional southern culture and dialects within a very short distance of one another. In this regard, I think that they they are very much border cities with both a strong northern and southern influence.
Traditional southern culture and dialects within a very short of distance of each other? I have no idea what makes you think traditional southern culture exists in either of these places. The Southern dialect map places the Southern accent well to the south of St. Louis...you occasionally hear a Southern accent but it's not the norm. The southern influence is weak here at best. There is no sweet tea, Southern Baptists are incredibly outnumbered by Catholics, the architecture isn't Southern, it has cold winters with snow in addition to hot and humid summers...if you expect me to believe southern culture and dialects are prominent here, you need to go more specific. I've lived here 22 years, been all up and down this city from top to bottom...I rarely ever hear a southern accent or see anything about this city that makes it resemble Louisville, Nashville ,or Memphis other than its being on the Mississippi River. The only thing southern about St. Louis is the influence of barbecue which was brought up during the Great Migration, as evidenced by Maull's bbq sauce which began being produced in 1926. There was no such thing as STL-style barbecue before the twentieth century. Memphis influenced St. Louis and Chicago with the migrants it brought up during the Great Migration. St. Louis and Cincinnati are overall midwestern cities. If the Southern influence is strong here, I don't see it, and I've been all over the South and know enough to know STL and Cincy don't bear very much resemblance to it. Traditional southern culture doesn't start until about 100 miles to the south of both of these cities and below the Ohio River. I understand St. Louis has some Southern influence, but anyone who says it is strong is just flat out wrong, and no, I'm not a Southern-phobic. All of the cities on this list qualify as the southernmost major northern cities IMO and probably the vast majority of people out there. The northernmost major southern cities are Louisville, Lexington, Richmond, and Charleston (WV).
Traditional southern culture and dialects within a very short of distance of each other? I have no idea what makes you think traditional southern culture exists in either of these places. The Southern dialect map places the Southern accent well to the south of St. Louis...you occasionally hear a Southern accent but it's not the norm. The southern influence is weak here at best. There is no sweet tea, Southern Baptists are incredibly outnumbered by Catholics, the architecture isn't Southern, it has cold winters with snow in addition to hot and humid summers...if you expect me to believe southern culture and dialects are prominent here, you need to go more specific. I've lived here 22 years, been all up and down this city from top to bottom...I rarely ever hear a southern accent or see anything about this city that makes it resemble Louisville, Nashville ,or Memphis other than its being on the Mississippi River. The only thing southern about St. Louis is the influence of barbecue which was brought up during the Great Migration, as evidenced by Maull's bbq sauce which began being produced in 1926. There was no such thing as STL-style barbecue before the twentieth century. Memphis influenced St. Louis and Chicago with the migrants it brought up during the Great Migration. St. Louis and Cincinnati are overall midwestern cities. If the Southern influence is strong here, I don't see it, and I've been all over the South and know enough to know STL and Cincy don't bear very much resemblance to it. Traditional southern culture doesn't start until about 100 miles to the south of both of these cities and below the Ohio River. I understand St. Louis has some Southern influence, but anyone who says it is strong is just flat out wrong, and no, I'm not a Southern-phobic. All of the cities on this list qualify as the southernmost major northern cities IMO and probably the vast majority of people out there. The northernmost major southern cities are Louisville, Lexington, Richmond, and Charleston (WV).
Travel a short distance outside of the city to smaller places like maybe Winfield, MO or Chester, IL and I think that you will find that these towns have alot more in common with places in Kentucky or than they do with small towns near places like Cleveland or Chicago. This is not necessarily a good or bad thing. But I have done alot of traveling too and, to me, many of the smaller towns outside of STL seem to have a decidedly southern flavor in terms of terrain, dialects, and lifestyle factors - and I repeat, this is not necessarily a good or bad thing....Instead, it is just a "thing" that I have noticed.
Travel a short distance outside of the city to smaller places like maybe Winfield, MO or Chester, IL and I think that you will find that these towns have alot more in common with places in Kentucky or than they do with small towns near places like Cleveland or Chicago. This is not necessarily a good or bad thing. But I have done alot of traveling too and, to me, many of the smaller towns outside of STL seem to have a decidedly southern flavor in terms of terrain, dialects, and lifestyle factors - and I repeat, this is not necessarily a good or bad thing....Instead, it is just a "thing" that I have noticed.
Have you no education? First off, Winfield is in Northern Missouri, which is hardly Southern. The terrain of Winfield is largely due to its location near the Mississippi River...those are river bluffs. While the rocky cliffs might be somewhat like the Ozarks, which themselves are not truly Southern, the soil of Lincoln County is very fertile and excellent for the growth of lots of wheat, corn, and soybeans. all very common sights. Dialects in that area are Midwestern...Lincoln County, Missouri is very close to Central Illinois. Chester is in the same situation, but I would agree to its having some Southern cultural influences due to being only about 70 miles north of the Ohio River. However, nearby towns such as Carbondale, Pinckneyville, etc...they all have a mixture of Midwestern and Southern influences. While they may be further south than Louisville, the Southern culture, dialect, and influences are MUCH weaker.The same thing applies to most of Southern Missouri. These regions are too culturally and geographically and climatalogically complex to be compartmentalized into one region. There is nothing southern about Winfield, Missouri. Chester has fertile soil as well due to the fact that it was glaciated by the Illinoian glacier and it's location near the Mississippi. You are far too quick too compartmentalize cities into one region or the other, not to mention you compare temperatures of cities to each other on a few days of the year as opposed to monthly ones, which are more accurate. I'm done here.
Have you no education? First off, Winfield is in Northern Missouri, which is hardly Southern. The terrain of Winfield is largely due to its location near the Mississippi River...those are river bluffs. While the rocky cliffs might be somewhat like the Ozarks, which themselves are not truly Southern, the soil of Lincoln County is very fertile and excellent for the growth of lots of wheat, corn, and soybeans. all very common sights. Dialects in that area are Midwestern...Lincoln County, Missouri is very close to Central Illinois. Chester is in the same situation, but I would agree to its having some Southern cultural influences due to being only about 70 miles north of the Ohio River. However, nearby towns such as Carbondale, Pinckneyville, etc...they all have a mixture of Midwestern and Southern influences. While they may be further south than Louisville, the Southern culture, dialect, and influences are MUCH weaker.The same thing applies to most of Southern Missouri. These regions are too culturally and geographically and climatalogically complex to be compartmentalized into one region. There is nothing southern about Winfield, Missouri. Chester has fertile soil as well due to the fact that it was glaciated by the Illinoian glacier and it's location near the Mississippi. You are far too quick too compartmentalize cities into one region or the other, not to mention you compare temperatures of cities to each other on a few days of the year as opposed to monthly ones, which are more accurate. I'm done here.
I am happy to hear that you are such an authority on culture, geography, climatology, and geology and have definitive answers for everything. As for my education, I hold a terminal degree in my field. But I am sure that you hold PhDs in all of the above named fields of which you hold so much expertise in. Thanks to you, we now have an undisputable, definitive statement of where the North ends and the South begins. Another undisputable and definitive statement is that you are not a nice person and you should perhaps earn an additional degree in communications. That way, you might be able to figure out a way to interact on this forum without coming across as such a jerk. I am finished (as opposed to done) here too!
Last edited by Central Illinois 1; 03-01-2009 at 05:46 PM..
Are you kidding me? St. Louis has almost every characteristic of the Midwest. The culture is Midwestern, the architecture is Midwestern, the politics are Midwestern, and the landscape is Midwestern. It was an industrial manufacturing city that gained in population during the Great Migration. St. Louis has a lot more in common with Chicago than it does with Memphis. It resembles Chicago more in architecture, attitude, overall culture, etc. The only thing it shares in common with Memphis is being on the Mississippi River. If any city has the most southern influence on this list, i would have to say Cincinnati simply because of how politically conservative it is for a Midwestern city. Regardless, pretty much every city on this list belongs either in the Northeast (Baltimore or D.C.) or Midwest (KC, STL, Cincy). KC, STL, and Cincy have far more in common with Indianapolis and Chicago than with Louisville, Nashville, and Memphis. Baltimore and D.C. resemble Philadelphia in terms of modern day culture, political attitudes, architecture, and cuisine. I have family in Cleveland and D.C. and also Spartanburg, South Carolina, and also had family at one point in Louisiana and Memphis. D.C. is unquestionably Northeastern today, and St. Louis feels far more like Cleveland than Memphis. Anyone who would equate St. Louis to being more Southern than Midwestern either has never been here or doesn't understand what the Midwest and South are.
Exactly.
My American History teacher was from St. Louis when I was in college- and she lives in Richmond. She had a very strong Midwestern twang- sort like Shrilary Clinton, only a bit softer. She made it a point that she was not from the South. She acted like Richmond was the edge of the earth.
She acted like we were the Deep South. She in so many words, told us we were "backwards".
She said we had "thick accents", and she didnt care for sweet tea, and she hated that we were still "fighting the war". If she thinks the Richmond area is too Southern for her, I shudder to think what would happen if she moved to Mississppi.
My American History teacher was from St. Louis when I was in college- and she lives in Richmond. She had a very strong Midwestern twang- sort like Shrilary Clinton, only a bit softer. She made it a point that she was not from the South. She acted like Richmond was the edge of the earth.
She acted like we were the Deep South. She in so many words, told us we were "backwards".
She said we had "thick accents", and she didnt care for sweet tea, and she hated that we were still "fighting the war". If she thinks the Richmond area is too Southern for her, I shudder to think what would happen if she moved to Mississppi.
Whether she considered herself to be southern or northern, I would say that your teacher was acting pompous and egocentric and being very disrespectful to her students. Perhaps she should have reassessed her career path. Unfortunately, we find people like this on both sides of the Mason-Dixon Line, regardless of where you wish to place that boundary.
Last edited by Central Illinois 1; 03-02-2009 at 07:39 AM..
Whether she considered herself to be southern or northern, I would say that your teacher was acting pompous and egocentric and being very disrespectful to her students. Perhaps she should have reassessed her career path. Unfortunately, we find people like this on both sides of the Mason-Dixon Line, regardless of where you wish to place that boundary.
yes, indeed. Some of us were wanting to audit the class.
"What Major Non-Southern city has the Most Southern influence?"
Richmond?
Richmond is a Southern city.
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