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After seeing where my high school classmates went after graduation, I can say with confidence that not everyone goes to college. Maybe more people go than in the past, but certainly not everyone goes. I don't plan on going to grad school because I find it unnecessary. I am working toward my bachelor's degree because I want to get something out of it. I don't want my 4 years of undergrad to go to waste and just be preparation for grad school. There's only so much schooling I want to do. I've heard horror stories of the workload in grad school and I don't want to put myself through that torture. I know people with bachelor's degrees that are more successful than a lot of people with Master's degrees, so education level alone doesn't mean much.
I'd say the key is getting a 4 year degree. After that, your success is what you make of it.
The exception is people that choose a career path that requires an advanced degree. I, however, did not choose such a career path.
When people started to try and avoid the real world at all costs.
Actually, the real world wants these fools in grad school forever so they can substantiate an overtly optimism-biased picture of the the economic viability of the real world itself. It would be hard to keep the pawns going to undergrad if all these people actually made it to the general economy and found out that *gasp*, a college degree is the new high school diploma and at best it will yield you a 40K salary (us median personal income) that won't see much improvement for decades....and no healthcare and retirements if the 65+ crowd has any say on the matter. F U I got mine, the American Dream embodied.
There's no way my yet to exist kids are going to be able to pursue a college education relying on parental subsidy or student loans. My hope is that in 20 years the education racket bubble collapses, so as to stabilize the costs of obtaining the high school diploma of the 21st century. Out-of-state tuition is absolutely out of the question. Besides, everybody knows you shouldn't pay for grad school anyways. I got a masters and I sure as heck did not pay for it. I was completely prepared to forego grad school if a financial offer of tuition remittance wasn't extended. People need to be willing to vote with their feet sometimes. People also need to stop looking at life from the illusory perspective of "how much monthly payment can I swing", as if to suggest life is constant and one will live forever.
Actually, the real world wants these fools in grad school forever so they can substantiate an overtly optimism-biased picture of the the economic viability of the real world itself.
So you think the "real world", namely the economy, is conscious and thinking about this right now? Or perhaps, its that you believe in wizards that can control the economy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hindsight2020
It would be hard to keep the pawns going to undergrad if all these people actually made it to the general economy and found out that *gasp*, a college degree is the new high school diploma and at best it will yield you a 40K salary (us median personal income) that won't see much improvement for decades....
Oh....I hove hyperbole! But let's look at the actual data...shall we? From the 2000 census. The median income for those with a Bachelors is $42,877, that means that 50% of those with bachelors are making more than this. Rather different than "at best will yield you a 40k salary". The median for those with just a high school education is $27,351.....
Earnings By Occupation and Education (http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/earnings/call1usboth.html - broken link)
Now, since you think apparently something has changed in terms of wages between high school grads vs those with a bachelors. Let's take a look at historic wage data (for males).
HS College Spread as %
1991........$21,546......$36,067....67%
2007........$31,337......$56,826....81%
Amazing, how reality is the exact opposite of what you are suggesting huh? The spread is now GREATER. The median salary for college graduates is not 81% MORE than someone with just a high school salary and yet you want to claim its the "new high school diploma". Wait, maybe college graduates wages have gone down? Oh...nope! Adjusted in 2007 dollars (i.e., adjusting for inflation) wages for college grads in 1991 was ~$53k, its now ~$56. The wages for high school grads stated pretty much the same in inflation adjusted terms.
Historical Income Tables - People (http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/histinc/p16.html - broken link)
Grad school for many is a way to escape reality, if just for a few more years.
So you think the "real world", namely the economy, is conscious and thinking about this right now? Or perhaps, its that you believe in wizards that can control the economy?
Oh....I hove hyperbole! But let's look at the actual data...shall we? From the 2000 census. The median income for those with a Bachelors is $42,877, that means that 50% of those with bachelors are making more than this. Rather different than "at best will yield you a 40k salary". The median for those with just a high school education is $27,351.....
Earnings By Occupation and Education (http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/earnings/call1usboth.html - broken link)
Now, since you think apparently something has changed in terms of wages between high school grads vs those with a bachelors. Let's take a look at historic wage data (for males).
HS College Spread as %
1991........$21,546......$36,067....67%
2007........$31,337......$56,826....81%
Amazing, how reality is the exact opposite of what you are suggesting huh? The spread is now GREATER. The median salary for college graduates is not 81% MORE than someone with just a high school salary and yet you want to claim its the "new high school diploma". Wait, maybe college graduates wages have gone down? Oh...nope! Adjusted in 2007 dollars (i.e., adjusting for inflation) wages for college grads in 1991 was ~$53k, its now ~$56. The wages for high school grads stated pretty much the same in inflation adjusted terms.
Historical Income Tables - People (http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/histinc/p16.html - broken link)
Grad school for many is a way to escape reality, if just for a few more years.
I've heard horror stories of the workload in grad school. I'd rather have a job in the real world than have to deal with that
I've heard horror stories of the workload in grad school. I'd rather have a job in the real world than have to deal with that
It depends on the school/program, most people are obviously not going to top programs and the average programs are pretty easy.
Its not so much about the work load, but rather student life is "fun". I've been around academia for awhile and the number of people that seem to go to grad school to escape the real world is pretty high. Its much higher in the fields that are not all that viable in the job market (e.g., English, History, etc), than the programs that lead to decent jobs.
My undergraduate college was not dummied down. It was challenging.
The poor, deluded, American masses. The typical BA graduate now would not have been able to graduate from a 1950's high school. The typical US BA graduate now scores lower in general knowledge tests than Japanese high school juniors.
I'm certain you did find it challenging. You wasted the first 13 years of your life in American public schools.
I think it is because the economy sucks and people want to wait it out in grad school. Either that or they have massive student loans from their undergrad they want to avoid paying on right now because they can't find a job because the economy sucks.
I don't think the labor market really needs so many people with MAs and PhDs at all. Just people don't know what else to do when no jobs are being created for them.
Although I agree that to some extent it is amplified by the economic downturn, I'd argue that a BA becoming the equivalent of a high school degree is a natural progression due to supply and demand. Back in the day, there wasn't as much opportunity (read supply) to get a college degree, and thus people who got it were seen as intelligent, and their services were more demanded. Nowadays, given how "easy" it is to get a higher education, there is a greater supply of BA degrees, while the desirable jobs for those that have a BA have failed to grow to meet the demand. Therefore, employers have turned to a new way to weed out the "lesser" by now recommending a masters degree. I still think that for those that are happy with a normal job don't really need a masters, but for those who are ambitious and really want to maximize their earning potential, a masters is basically required except for a very select few industries.
In a way it's kind of sad if you ask me. In a few generations, people are going to be required to get a PhD, and by then, the market will be so full of PHD programs that even a PHD's value will be diminished by some questionable programs handing them out (such as University of Phoenix and other questionable programs which really diminish the value of a BA by saturating the market), and people may have to study EVEN MORE to prove their worth, or it will be required to go to a select few schools that are obviously legit (such as HYPS). 40 is already the new 30, but surely enough, ordinary people will have to study till their 30s to get an entry-level job. Imagine what doctors would have to go through
thankfully, I'll probably be dead before a PhD starts becoming a requirement for most jobs
The poor, deluded, American masses. The typical BA graduate now would not have been able to graduate from a 1950's high school. The typical US BA graduate now scores lower in general knowledge tests than Japanese high school juniors.
I'm certain you did find it challenging. You wasted the first 13 years of your life in American public schools.
That's a pretty sarcastic and slightly misguided thing to say IMO. I think the reason that BA scores are lower than high school graduates is because there are so many quick ways to get a bachelor's degree that almost anyone (aka people who probably wouldn't survive at a more legit program, and shouldn't possess one) can get one. This deflates the value of the degree by simply having too many of them in the market (just like the dollar gets deflated if obama prints a trillion dollar bill to feed off our deficit ).
Plus, knowledge tests aren't always the best indicator of "challenge" or even intellect IMO. My parents studied under the Indian schooling system (which is fairly similar I'd imagine to the Japanese system you referenced), and while I might not be able to recite Hydrogen's atomic mass off the top of my head, even they are impressed with our ability to be creative, our presentation abilities, etc. which aren't as heavily emphasized in asian schools. That's why a lot of these Indian telemarketers (no racist, I'm Indian) are stuck as tech support but don't move up as managers. Having soft-skills, and knowing how to get ahead are just as important to one's intelligence, I think, and these are what separates us from our asian counterparts.
That's a pretty sarcastic and slightly misguided thing to say IMO. I think the reason that BA scores are lower than high school graduates is because there are so many quick ways to get a bachelor's degree that almost anyone (aka people who probably wouldn't survive at a more legit program, and shouldn't possess one) can get one. This deflates the value of the degree by simply having too many of them in the market (just like the dollar gets deflated if obama prints a trillion dollar bill to feed off our deficit ).
Plus, knowledge tests aren't always the best indicator of "challenge" or even intellect IMO. My parents studied under the Indian schooling system (which is fairly similar I'd imagine to the Japanese system you referenced), and while I might not be able to recite Hydrogen's atomic mass off the top of my head, even they are impressed with our ability to be creative, our presentation abilities, etc. which aren't as heavily emphasized in asian schools. That's why a lot of these Indian telemarketers (no racist, I'm Indian) are stuck as tech support but don't move up as managers. Having soft-skills, and knowing how to get ahead are just as important to one's intelligence, I think, and these are what separates us from our asian counterparts.
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