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We all know you work for a dealer. You can stop with the same repetitive drivel. How much progress have ICE cars made? After over a 100 years gas powered cars still only convert about 40% fuel into energy and give up a lot of interior space for the engine and transaxle. We can keep going too! You are one foot in the tar pit (We’ve also substantiated that Tesla is now profitable excluding carbon credits. You are going to need new material)
I don’t need any new material. Tesla is attempting to violate current Law by selling direct to the consumer. There hasn’t been any evidence presented that will support the changing of the Law to accommodate them. Tesla is profitable because the US Taxpayer has kept them afloat.
I don’t work for a dealer, I am retired. Like I said, I have been buying cars for 50 years. I am driving a 2019 ICE SUV and it is remarkable and a fabulous improvement compared to the vehicles that I have observed in my lifetime.
If you like electric cars, and Tesla, be my guest. It’s your money. If you’re confident in their future , buy some stock.
Take those old electric cars, build them with modern lightweight materials, low resistance tires, aerodynamic designs etc. and then see what kind of progress has been made in 100 years and hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars. Oh, don;t forget the resistance hubcaps.
Now compare the Model T to a 2021 Camry. See what has improved in that ICE?
Every time I drive my ICE down the road I contribute tax dollars to support the infrastructure. If I drive my tax credit supported, heavily backed with federal dollars full electric vehicle, I don’t contribute a cent.
I can back everything up. Did you miss the” consultant “ part? That’s my game. That’s how I made my living. I don’t write nonsense, and I know what I am talking about.
If electric vehicles were affordable, practical and worthy of mass market consumption, they would be selling like hot cakes. They aren’t because for the most part they aren’t applicable to the majority of American’s lifestyle who drive automobiles. They hardly sell even with tax credits.
I’ve done the math. The Teslas are rear wheel drive, the Model 3 back seat is built for midgets. For 30K I can by a new AWD ICE SUV that will give over 30 mpg around town, get 420 mile on a tank of gas, and the first two years of maintenance for free. Synthetic Oil changes at 10K. Rotate the tires. That’s the maintenance. Full warranty , including rust. Plus all the room I need, seats 4 comfortably.
The first two years have zero maintenance cost.
The reliability of that vehicle blows current electrics like Tesla out of the water.
Plus I get to buy from any number of manufacturers that aren’t on a roller coaster, have problems delivering parts , and service?
Like I said, I have 5 Toyota dealers within a half hour of where I live Why on earth would I spend nearly twice as much for an inferior vehicle and risk problems just to be fashionable ?
What does etc. mean here? Basically, build a modern electric vehicle? C'mon, that's just a silly thing to say.
You can drive a Tesla--that no longer gets a federal tax credit. It sunset out of it a while back. If you're still going on about federal loan and cash infusions, yea, a lot of ICE automakers got those and got a lot more of them. Does it change how the vehicle perform? Eh, maybe not.
You seem bad at your game here. You missed a pretty basic, physical as in part of the physical material world kind of physical part about those vehicles a century ago being driven at 20 miles per hour and under to get that kind of range. You missed the part about duty cycles, about energy density, about peak charge and discharge. It's some very basic properties of a battery and an electric vehicle that you somehow didn't even consider which makes listening to you a pretty tough proposition for me.
Sure, you're comparing a sedan to a crossover. Guess what? There are ICE vehicles in the compact executive sedan class. You can go for a more direct comparison which generally makes more sense though maybe you can consult on that. We're talking BMW 3-Series, Mercedes C-Class, Lexus ES, Acura TLX. Try doing a comparison--apparently a lot of people have already, but maybe you can bring your keen consultant's eye which seemed to have completely missed some of very important basic properties about vehicles to this.
What does etc. mean here? Basically, build a modern electric vehicle? C'mon, that's just a silly thing to say.
You can drive a Tesla--that no longer gets a federal tax credit. It sunset out of it a while back. If you're still going on about federal loan and cash infusions, yea, a lot of ICE automakers got those and got a lot more of them. Does it change how the vehicle perform? Eh, maybe not.
You seem bad at your game here. You missed a pretty basic, physical as in part of the physical material world kind of physical part about those vehicles a century ago being driven at 20 miles per hour and under to get that kind of range. You missed the part about duty cycles, about energy density, about peak charge and discharge. It's some very basic properties of a battery and an electric vehicle that you somehow didn't even consider which makes listening to you a pretty tough proposition for me.
Sure, you're comparing a sedan to a crossover. Guess what? There are ICE vehicles in the compact executive sedan class. You can go for a more direct comparison which generally makes more sense though maybe you can consult on that. We're talking BMW 3-Series, Mercedes C-Class, Lexus ES, Acura TLX. Try doing a comparison--apparently a lot of people have already, but maybe you can bring your keen consultant's eye which seemed to have completely missed some of very important basic properties about vehicles to this.
Not silly at all. Electrics have all those years behind them, and the early electrics were remarkable because they paved the way. With all the millions spent, the results are disappointing.
Did you miss the point about the tax dollars per gallon of gasoline to support infrastructure?
I didn’t miss anything. One gallon of gasoline is pretty much unmatched regarding the energy it can produce. No need to worry about recharged battery inefficiency , safety issues of the battery itself, on no on. No need to worry what I will do when I get caught in traffic, or inclement weather , or a white out, I know there is a gasoline station available.
BMW and Mercedes typically have cost of operation from 5 years on among the highest. Lexus in many cases is a Toyota with add ons. They actually as a brand have slipped below Toyota in reliability. I’m not a fan of Acura . And reliability is an issue for me. I have owned over 10 Toyotas. Only once was one needed to be towed , with a hole in the radiator. My standards for reliability are extremely high.
And as I mentioned, I ran my cars 7 days a week , year round. As I mentioned, high mileage, two had the original clutches last over 190K.
Are BMW and Mercedes selling direct in CT like Tesla wants to? Why doesn’t Tesla go the normal route like every one else , maybe they will actually sell more product?
There just aren’t enough reasons to change the Dealership model. Maybe they are in cahoots with the Package Store Lobby, who knows?
I don’t need any new material. Tesla is attempting to violate current Law by selling direct to the consumer. There hasn’t been any evidence presented that will support the changing of the Law to accommodate them. Tesla is profitable because the US Taxpayer has kept them afloat.
I don’t work for a dealer, I am retired. Like I said, I have been buying cars for 50 years. I am driving a 2019 ICE SUV and it is remarkable and a fabulous improvement compared to the vehicles that I have observed in my lifetime.
If you like electric cars, and Tesla, be my guest. It’s your money. If you’re confident in their future , buy some stock.
PS the US automakers are only profitable because taxpayers kept them afloat. 50 years of buying cars but 2008 already forgotten (and wasn’t the first time). Move along.
Wait you support gasoline? Are you aware that in terms of actual torque a diesel engine even decades old would outperform a gasoline engine? If you're doing any form of trucking or hauling you have to use diesel. A long time ago my father has a friend that bought the biggest gasoline truck that Ford had with a V10 engine and you only had eight miles per gallon. If you want horsepower you go with gasoline if you want actual torque and towing ability you have to go with diesel this is the way how it's been Generations.
Keep in mind in terms of miles per gallon the Cafe has not been increased. 40 miles a gallon appears to bee the limit unless you want to go with diesel or a hybrid it is been this way since 1988.
Your arguments are looking extremely hypocritical. Most of the automotive industry is propped up by government and has been for quite some time police cruisers for quite some time we're always Crown Vics.
The automotive industry is not exactly a well-run industry. They always overestimate how many people need to be employed so there's *always* somebody on a given layoff that have to go on an employment, they *always* ask for tax credits from the local and state governments, eyc
Is just some basic facts that you need to deal with technology is a very hard thing to bet against. I'm not saying we're going to have self-driving cars tomorrow morning but I wouldn't put it past me to have 5 10 15 years out it's going to be a reality. Regardless of whether it's Tesla or not when you have the Department of Defense working alongside with Google and the current car manufacturer is a pretty much as a sure thing.
Let's just say for the sake of argument a self-driving car cost $100,000 and it's electric okay how do we address access and price at this point. First of all an automobile January 6th 95% of the time so if we make this argument we can logically say that 20 people could share one car under Siri and price it at $5,000 a year now if we do that that's equal almost to some car leases that are already on the market. Problem solved now these cars continue to drop in price just as Tesla's had once we reach five $50,000 then I will drop even further to 2500 a person if shared between. If you have good credit that probably is your car lease so from a price perspective it's not going to be that much more and it's just a sure thing it's going to happen. I remember in the 1980s when they said we are the information based economy and we had bbs's and no one around me could understand we're going to do shopping online. I had a very heated argument with somebody I worked with a bit about Smart TV about 10 years ago he said that their pie in the sky and way off yeah and then Fire TV came out for $20.
It doesn't matter if you think they're violating the law Connecticut state laws are extremely weak and ineffective and can easily be tossed out. Nobody ever sites Connecticut state law as something to hold up for the nation. As it was mentioned early so I can just buy from another state and just bring it in. So that's one way around it or Tesla can just sell it as a form of a lease and can also get around it. The dealerships don't have that much of a future and they know it.
Not silly at all. Electrics have all those years behind them, and the early electrics were remarkable because they paved the way. With all the millions spent, the results are disappointing.
Did you miss the point about the tax dollars per gallon of gasoline to support infrastructure?
I didn’t miss anything. One gallon of gasoline is pretty much unmatched regarding the energy it can produce. No need to worry about recharged battery inefficiency , safety issues of the battery itself, on no on. No need to worry what I will do when I get caught in traffic, or inclement weather , or a white out, I know there is a gasoline station available.
BMW and Mercedes typically have cost of operation from 5 years on among the highest. Lexus in many cases is a Toyota with add ons. They actually as a brand have slipped below Toyota in reliability. I’m not a fan of Acura . And reliability is an issue for me. I have owned over 10 Toyotas. Only once was one needed to be towed , with a hole in the radiator. My standards for reliability are extremely high.
And as I mentioned, I ran my cars 7 days a week , year round. As I mentioned, high mileage, two had the original clutches last over 190K.
Are BMW and Mercedes selling direct in CT like Tesla wants to? Why doesn’t Tesla go the normal route like every one else , maybe they will actually sell more product?
There just aren’t enough reasons to change the Dealership model. Maybe they are in cahoots with the Package Store Lobby, who knows?
It's silly for you to be backtracking now. You are the one who brought up 80 miles for a century old electric vehicle as an example and compared it to the 200+ miles for a Model 3. Implicit to you using those figures is missing several things I pointed out including that those 80 mile figures was for 20 mph and under cruising which for EVs today would be extreme hypermiling figures and nets you something like 600 miles of range for a Model 3. You're talking about millions of spending and then you forget that orders of magnitude more that had been spent bailing out US automakers just a decade ago--mind you, I think your line of reasoning on this is wrong in general, but you manged to miss even this kind of low-hanging fruit.
You also brought out how improved your Camry is over a Model T after you had talked about range for EVs and lack of improvement. The general improvements not related to mileage are still there with the electric vehicle, and meanwhile the mileage improvements are greater. Your standard Camry gets 32 miles per gallon to the Model T's 21 miles per gallon, so by your logic that's much more money spent for the same time frame for much less improvement. Now that's a weak argument in general, but it is how you're constructing yours.
I'm in favor of charging road taxes on EVs. Do it annually by miles and weight sounds good to me. I have no opposition to that and gas taxes as they are don't seem to have been enough to keep CT's roads in shape, so raise them all. You also have greater negative externalities attached to tailpipe emissions and I think taxing more of that, too, would be great.
One gallon of gasoline is very energy dense--the problem is that the internal combustion engine in an automobile after untold billions of investment and a century's time still cannot effectively convert the vast majority of that energy into useful work. People still worry about fuel efficiency despite its great amount of energy because of it. There are still fires in today's ICE vehicles and safety issues with such and recalls still occur despite all that experience and money. Meanwhile, battery improvements have kept on increasing the amount of range available for the cost and charging stations have proliferated. There's no great difficulty in owning an electric vehicle in CT and there are people with experience with such who can tell you as much.
I also want to mention that it's not just electric vehicles I'd like to see sold outside of dealerships--I'd like to see that happen with ICE vehicles as well. I think it'd be great if Toyota also was not obligated to sell through dealerships and so there can be a price / value competition between Toyota dealerships and Toyota direct sales. That would be fantastic.
Uber and Lyft presented a better option, as did ZipCar and Turo. Where there Laws against what they were attempting?
Direct to consumer vehicle sales have not been proven to be superior to the present system in place.
We hear speculation and conjecture , emotional anecdotal outbursts, but just about zero substance to support the change.
How about this for substantive--Most people, myself included, do not consider buying new vehicles through a dealership to be a pleasant experience. Whether it's "bait & switch" tactics, selling unnecessary extras, talking you into financing, you name it. Along comes a company with a direct-to-consumer model, which seems to delight customers. Why not amend the law to allow for this? It's the wave of the future...just look at just about everything else we buy.
Like with everything else (e.g. full-service travel agencies), dealers who want to stay in business will adapt to make their own buying experiences more competitive with the direct model.
PS the US automakers are only profitable because taxpayers kept them afloat. 50 years of buying cars but 2008 already forgotten (and wasn’t the first time). Move along.
However their products use a fuel that actually fuels the economy more so that an electric vehicle will ever achieve. Kill the ICE engine, where is all that revenue going to come from?
Obama skirted bankruptcy law as a favor to the Unions. The taxpayers got hosed because of him.
Wait you support gasoline? Are you aware that in terms of actual torque a diesel engine even decades old would outperform a gasoline engine? If you're doing any form of trucking or hauling you have to use diesel. A long time ago my father has a friend that bought the biggest gasoline truck that Ford had with a V10 engine and you only had eight miles per gallon. If you want horsepower you go with gasoline if you want actual torque and towing ability you have to go with diesel this is the way how it's been Generations.
Keep in mind in terms of miles per gallon the Cafe has not been increased. 40 miles a gallon appears to bee the limit unless you want to go with diesel or a hybrid it is been this way since 1988.
Your arguments are looking extremely hypocritical. Most of the automotive industry is propped up by government and has been for quite some time police cruisers for quite some time we're always Crown Vics.
The automotive industry is not exactly a well-run industry. They always overestimate how many people need to be employed so there's *always* somebody on a given layoff that have to go on an employment, they *always* ask for tax credits from the local and state governments, eyc
Is just some basic facts that you need to deal with technology is a very hard thing to bet against. I'm not saying we're going to have self-driving cars tomorrow morning but I wouldn't put it past me to have 5 10 15 years out it's going to be a reality. Regardless of whether it's Tesla or not when you have the Department of Defense working alongside with Google and the current car manufacturer is a pretty much as a sure thing.
Let's just say for the sake of argument a self-driving car cost $100,000 and it's electric okay how do we address access and price at this point. First of all an automobile January 6th 95% of the time so if we make this argument we can logically say that 20 people could share one car under Siri and price it at $5,000 a year now if we do that that's equal almost to some car leases that are already on the market. Problem solved now these cars continue to drop in price just as Tesla's had once we reach five $50,000 then I will drop even further to 2500 a person if shared between. If you have good credit that probably is your car lease so from a price perspective it's not going to be that much more and it's just a sure thing it's going to happen. I remember in the 1980s when they said we are the information based economy and we had bbs's and no one around me could understand we're going to do shopping online. I had a very heated argument with somebody I worked with a bit about Smart TV about 10 years ago he said that their pie in the sky and way off yeah and then Fire TV came out for $20.
It doesn't matter if you think they're violating the law Connecticut state laws are extremely weak and ineffective and can easily be tossed out. Nobody ever sites Connecticut state law as something to hold up for the nation. As it was mentioned early so I can just buy from another state and just bring it in. So that's one way around it or Tesla can just sell it as a form of a lease and can also get around it. The dealerships don't have that much of a future and they know it.
Yes, gas over diesel for a passenger car. More practical for the everyday consumer. Modern ICE automobiles , are state of the art incredible vehicles regardless of your opinion of the manufacturer.
A vehicle has to be registered in order to be driven on public roads ,and are subject to Laws that pertain to it. Aren’t all Teslas leased? Can you actually buy one outright? My goodness, you think if a company wanted to sell product they would make it easy to buy.
Just set up like everyone else , sell the cars traditionally. Sounds foolish regarding all the clandestine nonsense. Well hey, they’re a roller coaster as I said.
If the Law is so weak and ineffective why hasn’t it been challenged in Court?
Yes, gas over diesel for a passenger car. More practical for the everyday consumer. Modern ICE automobiles , are state of the art incredible vehicles regardless of your opinion of the manufacturer.
A vehicle has to be registered in order to be driven on public roads ,and are subject to Laws that pertain to it. Aren’t all Teslas leased? Can you actually buy one outright? My goodness, you think if a company wanted to sell product they would make it easy to buy.
Just set up like everyone else , sell the cars traditionally. Sounds foolish regarding all the clandestine nonsense. Well hey, they’re a roller coaster as I said.
If the Law is so weak and ineffective why hasn’t it been challenged in Court?
All Teslas are leased? So you don't even have that basic fact that right, but want to weigh in?
Laws can change, and hopefully CT will change those laws to make it so automakers can sell direct to consumers outside of dealerships.
On another note, a decade ago, the best-selling EV in the US was the first-generation Nissan Leaf. In 2021 dollars, the price of that base Leaf is about equivalent to the price of a base Model 3 which is now the best-selling EV in the US. The latter is a much larger vehicle with many more features. On top of that, it's 73 miles of EPA range versus 263 miles of EPA range. 50kW max charge rate vs 170 kW max charge rate and there are a lot more charging stations. Greater efficiency per mile. Much faster 0-60 performance and top speed. Over the course of the 2010s, the average purchase price by automakers per kWh for battery capacity went from $1,100 per kWh to $150 and less per kWh and energy density nearly tripled.
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