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The key there is "lawful". While I am not a lawyer, there seem to be no grounds for arrest, and the officer took active part in escalating the situation.
If the cop directed your wife to pull her underwear over her face and jump on one leg while singing "Rudolph the raindeer" do you feel she should oblige him ?
It is not up to citizens to determine lawfulness. If an officer engaged in such bizarre behavior, I personally would either comply, or ask to accompany the officer to the police station and explain immediately and on tape or camera to a supervisor what just happened. Nine out of ten officers would then stand down.
An example. One of my friend's fathers was a lieutenant in the Army. During 1945 or 1946 Truman ordered Army units desegregated. A general ordered my friend's father to racially segregate his unit while training them. He demanded that the general put the order in writing. The general stood down. Someone quipped that this was "the first time a lieutenant won an argument with a general."
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Originally Posted by Ummagumma
I am not saying she was right in behaving the way she did, either. And I am not advocating that people start hurling insults at cops whenever they feel they've been wrongly asked to do something. Ultimately they both failed, but he had a responsibility to uphold the law, not to bend it to help his wounded pride.
I suspect she had a racially generated chip on her shoulder.
The key there is "lawful". While I am not a lawyer, there seem to be no grounds for arrest, and the officer took active part in escalating the situation.
If the cop directed your wife to pull her underwear over her face and jump on one leg while singing "Rudolph the raindeer" do you feel she should oblige him just because he has "absolute" authority ? There's a difference between official command and personal request, this cop seems to have difficulties finding that boundary.
I am not saying she was right in behaving the way she did, either. And I am not advocating that people start hurling insults at cops and disobeying them whenever they feel they've been wrongly asked to do something. Ultimately they both failed, but he had a responsibility to uphold the law, not to bend it to help his wounded pride. And I am pretty sure the police regulations have something in them about cop's responsibility in trying to de-escalate the situation. I have a problem when people break the law and even bigger problem when people who are given enormous powers and responsibilities so that they could protect the law start breaking it.
Don't you agree that police should be held to higher standard of behavior than ordinary citizens ?
He didn't break the law. Failing to signal a turn is actually a criminal offense in Texas - you can be arrested and go to jail. Asking her to get out of the car was legal. Asking her to put out the cigarette isn't as clear - I've heard that it was a request but not a legal order and, another opinion that it was a legal order if her belligerence gave him reason to believe she might throw the cigarette at him or try to burn him with it. Once she refused to get out of the car - a violation of a legal order - she was also subject to arrest. They both had issues and it would have been better if they'd never encountered each other.
I'll also offer this - no one likes having a police car behind them. It happens to me occasionally and I hate it. But it makes me hyper aware of the law and I am very careful as a result. If you think they are looking for an excuse to pull you over - don't give them one.
She had to have been alive since she left a very calm voicemail message on her friends phone saying she was still unable to get out and would see her soon.
It is not up to citizens to determine lawfulness. If an officer engaged in such bizarre behavior, I personally would either comply, or ask to accompany the officer to the police station and explain immediately and on tape or camera to a supervisor what just happened. Nine out of ten officers would then stand down.
I don't know.. maybe that would work if you tried it. Someone like Bland... probably not. And it wouldn't be because you are a more upstanding citizen than her.
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Originally Posted by jbgusa
An example. One of my friend's fathers was a lieutenant in the Army. During 1945 or 1946 Truman ordered Army units desegregated. A general ordered my friend's father to racially segregate his unit while training them. He demanded that the general put the order in writing. The general stood down. Someone quipped that this was "the first time a lieutenant won an argument with a general."
You really couldn't find something more recent than 1945 and something a little more, um... first person, to support your argument?
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Originally Posted by jbgusa
I suspect she had a racially generated chip on her shoulder.
I suspect you are correct. And? What? Is that a crime in Texas too, as is not signalling turns?
A professional cop, probably most cops, could have talked the women down and defused her anger, issued the ticked and sent her on her way. A lesson learned about signaling a lane change. He used every possible cue from her as a excuse to up his aggression.
I don't assume to know what happened in the jail but when they lock a person up they have some responsibility to see the they don't harm themselves.
I agree. She was definitely loose with all the cursing and calling the cop the p word. That really got his goat, I'm sure.
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Originally Posted by arc-lang
To me I could careless what happened during the traffic stop, I only care about what happened at the jail. The officer isn't going to be charged with anything on the traffic stop, because he didn't break any laws. Whether you agree with the officers decision to arrest her, he didn't have to explain that to the lady and so he made an arrest. The only thing that is left here is to determine whether this was a suicide or there was foul play. Again the dash cam video is irrelevant to me. But once again that is where the most focus is going to go and we are going to be arguing this case for months, and I believe that we are never going to fully understand what happened.
She was arrested for "contempt of cop." It is a widely used tactic by police officers who feel they have been disrespected and want revenge, so they arrest the person knowing full well that the charges will be dropped, but they have now ruined your day. It is an abuse of power
After she was stopped, she did nothing illegal, and the officer wrote a citation/warning (I've seen different sites call it different things) and returned to her car.
At that point he could have given her the paper and sent her on her way, but he chose to engage her over a cigarette.
He told her to put it out; she said she didn't have to. He had no reason to order her to put it out. She was acting lawfully in her own car. She said things that were not polite, but that language is protected speech (unless she was inciting a riot, which she certainly was not). In short, his ego took over.
He opened her car door and dragged her out for absolutely no reason, and, in fact, he threatened her when he told her that he will "light her up." This is hardly professional behavior or language, and it is the very reason why the officer has been removed from the streets.
Policing is difficult, but officers are held to higher standards. He should have issued his citation and walked away. There is no reason why the woman should have gone to jail.
Last edited by davidv; 07-23-2015 at 01:20 AM..
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