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I just get tired of people using blacks and the things done to us to say "see it's the same thing"... It isn't.
Faith,
Respectfully, I don't think anyone is saying being transgendered is the same as being black and of course each group's experiences are different. What I see is people using discrimination against black people as a reference point since as most people in this country accept that it's wrong. So the argument people make is "If you accept that it's unacceptable to discriminate against someone because of their race, why is it ok to discriminate against someone because of their sexual orientation or gender identity?"
It's akin to the parallels have between the arguments against interracial marriage in the 1960s and gay marriage today. As a white man married to black woman who didn't have to go through what Richard and Mildred Loving did in fighting the state of Virginia to be married, I can appreciate a similar struggle that gay couples have fought for to be treated fairly and equally.
As far as the assertion that you were born black and someone how transgendered people have chosen to bring this life upon themselves, I think any transgendered person would tell you that they were born with this gender identity issue and didn't choose it. Knowing what they go through, I can't imagine them choosing it.
Faith,
Respectfully, I don't think anyone is saying being transgendered is the same as being black and of course each group's experiences are different. What I see is people using discrimination against black people as a reference point since as most people in this country accept that it's wrong. So the argument people make is "If you accept that it's unacceptable to discriminate against someone because of their race, why is it ok to discriminate against someone because of their sexual orientation or gender identity?"
It's akin to the parallels have between the arguments against interracial marriage in the 1960s and gay marriage today. As a white man married to black woman who didn't have to go through what Richard and Mildred Loving did in fighting the state of Virginia to be married, I can appreciate a similar struggle that gay couples have fought for to be treated fairly and equally.
As far as the assertion that you were born black and someone how transgendered people have chosen to bring this life upon themselves, I think any transgendered person would tell you that they were born with this gender identity issue and didn't choose it. Knowing what they go through, I can't imagine them choosing it.
Faith,
Respectfully, I don't think anyone is saying being transgendered is the same as being black and of course each group's experiences are different. What I see is people using discrimination against black people as a reference point since as most people in this country accept that it's wrong. So the argument people make is "If you accept that it's unacceptable to discriminate against someone because of their race, why is it ok to discriminate against someone because of their sexual orientation or gender identity?"
It's akin to the parallels have between the arguments against interracial marriage in the 1960s and gay marriage today. As a white man married to black woman who didn't have to go through what Richard and Mildred Loving did in fighting the state of Virginia to be married, I can appreciate a similar struggle that gay couples have fought for to be treated fairly and equally.
As far as the assertion that you were born black and someone how transgendered people have chosen to bring this life upon themselves, I think any transgendered person would tell you that they were born with this gender identity issue and didn't choose it. Knowing what they go through, I can't imagine them choosing it.
I didn't say they "chose it", I said that they make the decision to change, whereas I cannot change the fact that I'm black--it is very visible, a visibility that I cannot make go away, an experience that I have to accept even if I wanted to be something other than what I am. I just read an article in one of my courses and it touched on it really well, as a black person there is this visibility and consciousness that we carry from the day we are first made aware of our race up until we die, we cannot pretend, we cannot hide away, we cannot make ourselves invisible, and no matter how we feel--because there are certainly black folks that don't like being black and wish they could be something else--we have to accept who we are. Now I can't imagine not liking the way I was born, and feeling like I was supposed to be someone else, and I honestly have no clue what it's like to be a transgender. That is the only reason why I spoke up. I read Mordin's post and I understand now that they were merely comparing discrimination against blacks to discrimination against transgenders.
As for gay couples--this isn't about gay couples, this is about transgenders and they can be gay or straight. I've already said that I feel for transgenders and these types of situation seem humiliating, embarrassing and it's sad. I've met two transgenders in my life--I don't know perhaps there have been more that have transitioned and I didn't realize it. One of them I became good friends with, the other my mom went to high school with. They were both MTF transgender black people. They struggled a lot unfortunately.
Is there? How to you know a transgender female is completely biologically and physically a male? Given the complexity of sexual development, it's quite likely they aren't.
It IS possible to be both male and female. I did not claim there are people walking around with two completely functioning sets of male and female sex organs. But people can and do have both sets of chromosomes in cells to varying ratios.
I always hear "if you have a penis you're a man, end of story." Or, if you have a Y chromosome you're a man, end of story." Well no, it's not.
This doesn't even take into account the hormonal and genetic variables necessary to delineate sexual development in a fetus and beyond.
I'm not saying trans people are intersex. What I am saying is there's likely a gene or hormonal variant that we don't fully understand yet. Being convinced you're the opposite gender at three years old when you've not been socialized to a degree that you are as an adult would indicate to me that it is an innate biological trait.
I got in this argument with a former college classmate two days ago. This is what her basic response was. That sexuality and gender isn't black and white, and you can identify as whatever.
My response was, and still is "They know why they were being held up -- they have a penis, and the machine scanned the individual as a femaleand saw an anomaly. Instead of sucking it up for 10 seconds and going along with being re-scanned as a male then going on with their lives, they decided to make a scene."
There gets to be a point in time where these people are going to have to accept this fact. The world isn't going to change something as simple as gender/sex for 0.2% of the population. If you're a high school boy who Sr year decides he wants to be a girl and wear a wig and makeup, don't expect to use the girl's locker rooms.
Transgenders need to look from the outside. How is their presence making others feel? In a normal workplace or school setting, it's no issue. But when getting naked or using the restrooms is involved, there needs to be some discretion taken.
In this case, this woman should have just gone with the flow. She wasn't being discriminated against. The TSA was just following their normal duties, and they gave this woman a chance to redeem herself and not be an issue. But she chose the hard way, and brought her own issue upon herself.
I didn't say they "chose it", I said that they make the decision to change, whereas I cannot change the fact that I'm black--it is very visible, a visibility that I cannot make go away, an experience that I have to accept even if I wanted to be something other than what I am. I just read an article in one of my courses and it touched on it really well, as a black person there is this visibility and consciousness that we carry from the day we are first made aware of our race up until we die, we cannot pretend, we cannot hide away, we cannot make ourselves invisible, and no matter how we feel--because there are certainly black folks that don't like being black and wish they could be something else--we have to accept who we are. Now I can't imagine not liking the way I was born, and feeling like I was supposed to be someone else, and I honestly have no clue what it's like to be a transgender. That is the only reason why I spoke up. I read Mordin's post and I understand now that they were merely comparing discrimination against blacks to discrimination against transgenders.
As for gay couples--this isn't about gay couples, this is about transgenders and they can be gay or straight. I've already said that I feel for transgenders and these types of situation seem humiliating, embarrassing and it's sad. I've met two transgenders in my life--I don't know perhaps there have been more that have transitioned and I didn't realize it. One of them I became good friends with, the other my mom went to high school with. They were both MTF transgender black people. They struggled a lot unfortunately.
I understand what you are saying. I appreciate your compassion, something that's sadly lacking around here.
But, there are some fundamental misunderstandings in your post. Firstly, while trans people do indeed have the option of "changing" into the opposite sex, it's that very act that makes them so reviled. If they didn't do it, nobody would have cause to hate them so much. But then they live feeling like they're living a lie. So it's a terrible "choice".
Secondly, people don't transition because they don't "like" their gender and covet another's. They do it because they are compelled to in their very being. Likely because they carry a biological anomaly that has caused the appearance of one sex while having certain innate characteristics of the other, outweighing appearance and obvious biological function. IMHO.
I got in this argument with a former college classmate two days ago. This is what her basic response was. That sexuality and gender isn't black and white, and you can identify as whatever.
My response was, and still is "They know why they were being held up -- they have a penis, and the machine scanned the individual as a femaleand saw an anomaly. Instead of sucking it up for 10 seconds and going along with being re-scanned as a male then going on with their lives, they decided to make a scene."
There gets to be a point in time where these people are going to have to accept this fact. The world isn't going to change something as simple as gender/sex for 0.2% of the population. If you're a high school boy who Sr year decides he wants to be a girl and wear a wig and makeup, don't expect to use the girl's locker rooms.
Transgenders need to look from the outside. How is their presence making others feel? In a normal workplace or school setting, it's no issue. But when getting naked or using the restrooms is involved, there needs to be some discretion taken.
In this case, this woman should have just gone with the flow. She wasn't being discriminated against. The TSA was just following their normal duties, and they gave this woman a chance to redeem herself and not be an issue. But she chose the hard way, and brought her own issue upon herself.
If you read anything I posted previously, which is sourced from the genetics dept at Stanford, you would not state that gender/sex is "simple" and that people just "decide" to become transgender women. People are very stubborn about this issue. They are convinced there's no in between here.
Because of this, how they "make others feel" is somewhat dependent on what others understand. If this woman's conduct has lead to a few more people actually grasping the facts then that's okay with me.
In a normal workplace or school setting, it's no issue.
It is an issue. In school, no child should have to sit in a class with someone like this. It's a distraction and sends the wrong message on acceptable vs. non-acceptable behavior.
I don't give a damn what variety of freak flag they fly at home, but in a learning environment there need to be standards of conduct and presentation.
Likewise at work. Could you have a serious work-related conversation with a guy in a dress and a wig?
Quote:
Originally Posted by caverunner17
But when getting naked or using the restrooms is involved, there needs to be some discretion taken.
No, not just discretion. Such a situation should never arise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by caverunner17
In this case, this woman should have just gone with the flow. She wasn't being discriminated against. The TSA was just following their normal duties, and they gave this woman a chance to redeem herself and not be an issue. But she chose the hard way, and brought her own issue upon herself.
But it filled the guy's LBGT need for drama and playing the victim/attention w***e.
It is an issue. In school, no child should have to sit in a class with someone like this. It's a distraction and sends the wrong message on acceptable vs. non-acceptable behavior.
I don't give a damn what variety of freak flag they fly at home, but in a learning environment there need to be standards of conduct and presentation.
Likewise at work. Could you have a serious work-related conversation with a guy in a dress and a wig?
We already established and agreed through our prior conversation that you'd rather align yourself with Hitler, or a bunch of other not so nice guys, than with the founding fathers of this nation.
I hope you'd understand that majority of people aren't like you though and don't think your feelings are universal around the country.
It is an issue. In school, no child should have to sit in a class with someone like this. It's a distraction and sends the wrong message on acceptable vs. non-acceptable behavior.
I don't give a damn what variety of freak flag they fly at home, but in a learning environment there need to be standards of conduct and presentation.
Likewise at work. Could you have a serious work-related conversation with a guy in a dress and a wig?
No, not just discretion. Such a situation should never arise.
But it filled the guy's LBGT need for drama and playing the victim/attention w***e.
Lol, you are in for a rough ride when your daughter goes to college. I hope for your sake she just ends up humoring her silly old dad and doesn't abandon you completely.
We already established and agreed through our prior conversation that you'd rather align yourself with Hitler, or a bunch of other not so nice guys, than with the founding fathers of this nation.
I hope you'd understand that majority of people aren't like you though and don't think your feelings are universal around the country.
We've neither established nor agreed to anything. You've made outrageous and unsubstantiated accusations hoping that by making them, you could sully my reputation and diminish acknowledgement of my posts. You learned that in Lib Tactics 101, right?
And what does that have to do with some guy in a dress having a hissy fit when going through airport security? Something the founding fathers never envisioned and would never have believed possible as acceptable, let alone endorseable, in a decent society.
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