Detroit's M1 Light Rail Line News and Developments (Wayne, Highland Park: crime rates, neighborhoods)

[detwahDJ]

Originally Posted by ForStarters

Folks act as if the PM is not used. It averages 3,500 passengers per day, with around 6,500 on weekends. It set ridership records in 2008 and has consistently gained ridership since the late 1990s. In 2010, 2.2 million people rode it. That's 1/5th of the State of Michigan's population.
For what it is, the People Mover is well-utilized by thousands of workers, visitors, and residents on a daily basis. If the original plan for the PM had been implemented, ridership could easily exceed 50k/day.

I worked downtown before the PM, and would certainly have used it.
Since then I visited with family and we used it, because it made sense. That type of transport really makes sense for a downtown area where getting around by other means is inconvenient.

[fmax]

FS,

"I'd wager that the People Mover results in a net benefit to the city's tax rolls"

I'd wager that the People Mover subsidies consumed services that would have otherwise been rightfully allocated to taxpayers in different areas of the city. This consumption would result in a net outflow of businesses and population.

The PM was installed back in 1987. Has business activity and population in the City of Detroit increased, remained about the same or decreased since 1987?

Detroit and it's "Economic Prosperity" through "Subsidies" hasn't worked since the '50's.

[Retroit]

Originally Posted by ForStarters

You guys are smart; do the math.

$10.5 million in subsidies
divided by 3,500 daily riders
= $3000 per year per rider

Is that smart?

[diablo234]

Originally Posted by Retroit

$10.5 million in subsidies
divided by 3,500 daily riders
= $3000 per year per rider

Is that smart?

And what about the potential for the increase in property values and TOD development once this thing is built?

[ForStarters]

Originally Posted by Retroit

$10.5 million in subsidies
divided by 3,500 daily riders
= $3000 per year per rider

Is that smart?

Look, the People Mover is not an easy system to defend. It costs the city/state about $4.77* per ride. In return, do riders inject that much money into the local economy? I think it's likely that they do, but I don't have proof. I can see that riders often frequent businesses near PM stops after getting off the train, but I have no exact figures.

The bottom line is that the People Mover shouldn't be used to judge whether other transit systems are viable. The People Mover is terribly limited and is disconnected from a larger transit system that would feed it more passengers. The PM struggles because people still need to drive near it to use it, unless they live/work downtown.

The biggest cost savings resulting from mass transit is encouraging consolidated growth in already developed areas. Without it, developers will continue to expand into raw land on the outskirts of the Metro because it is always the cheapest. Every year, they force the state to pay for new and redundant infrastructure to serve their developments. There is no stopping this cycle unless people have an alternative. In the end, the cost of creating an ever-expanding network of roads further and further into rural Michigan, while old roads never get decommissioned and must still be maintained, will cost significantly more taxpayer money for far less economic benefit.

*($10.5mm/2,200,000 riders per year)

[diablo234]

If anyone has doubts about this rail line spurring development I encourage you to click on this link.

DART.org - DART Transit-Oriented Development

Since the initial line was developed there are tons of development that took place along the rail line including developments such as Mockingbird Station, West Village, Gallatyn Park, and Eastside Village.

Other light rail lines in Denver, Houston, Minneapolis, Portland, and Charlotte experienced the same success even though many detractors said the same things about the M1 line. in Detroit

[DarkWolf]

Originally Posted by diablo234

If anyone has doubts about this rail line spurring development I encourage you to click on this link.

DART.org - DART Transit-Oriented Development

Since the initial line was developed there are tons of development that took place along the rail line including developments such as Mockingbird Station, West Village, Gallatyn Park, and Eastside Village.

Other light rail lines in Denver, Houston, Minneapolis, Portland, and Charlotte experienced the same success even though many detractors said the same things about the M1 line. in Detroit

DART is not a good system or development creator , as opposed to Portland or Minneapolis or Houston , Charlotte or Jersey City. Very Few stations have been developed around and DART keeps expanding to all the wrong places...

[Coldjensens]

Light rail can spur development when it is useful and well planned. The people mover was stupid from the beginning. It goes nowhere. IT takes a very circuitous route, and only goes in one direction. It is usually faster to walk. When it was first installed it was a huge debacle due to cronyism. Parts of it fell down and nearly killed people. It massively overran the budget. No one wanted to ride it, they thought that they woudl be killed either by the poor construction or by the other riders.
Now it is much better. It no longer falls down, I generally feel pretty safe riding it. It is still dumb because it it faster to walk. Still, it is kind of fun to ride and it does keep the rain off and the wind out, so it is useful in bad weather. I think it is funny to watch visitors to get on it to see where it will take them. Although there are some neat things fairly close to the stops, at each stop there is nothing. They ride it all the way around or get off and back on at various stops and end up bewildered, why does ti stop here? There is nothing here." You kind of have to know the city to know what is near the stops to make it worth getting off. But if you know the city, you know that it is often faster to walk.

They need a train that actually goes somewhere that is too far to walk. Going in a stright line might help with that. I would love it if the PM went out to Eastern Market, or all the way up to mid town, to the Fisher building, New Center, the Hospital,

[diablo234]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

DART is not a good system or development creator , as opposed to Portland or Minneapolis or Houston , Charlotte or Jersey City. Very Few stations have been developed around and DART keeps expanding to all the wrong places...

And how would you know exactly?

There are many more developments that are planned or are being built along the DART system, those were just a few of the top of my head.

Originally Posted by Coldjensens

Light rail can spur development when it is useful and well planned. The people mover was stupid from the beginning. It goes nowhere. IT takes a very circuitous route, and only goes in one direction. It is usually faster to walk. When it was first installed it was a huge debacle due to cronyism. Parts of it fell down and nearly killed people. It massively overran the budget. No one wanted to ride it, they thought that they woudl be killed either by the poor construction or by the other riders.
Now it is much better. It no longer falls down, I generally feel pretty safe riding it. It is still dumb because it it faster to walk. Still, it is kind of fun to ride and it does keep the rain off and the wind out, so it is useful in bad weather. I think it is funny to watch visitors to get on it to see where it will take them. Although there are some neat things fairly close to the stops, at each stop there is nothing. They ride it all the way around or get off and back on at various stops and end up bewildered, why does ti stop here? There is nothing here." You kind of have to know the city to know what is near the stops to make it worth getting off. But if you know the city, you know that it is often faster to walk.

They need a train that actually goes somewhere that is too far to walk. Going in a stright line might help with that. I would love it if the PM went out to Eastern Market, or all the way up to mid town, to the Fisher building, New Center, the Hospital,

The thing is the People Mover was to be part of a larger system. However support for extending the system dried up so you wound up with a useless loop around downtown. If light rail is to be a sucess there needs to be support for extending the system once the initial line is built.

[SupernovaDD]

Just a minor comment: I found the people mover incredibly useful. It got me to and from Greektown to the other areas downtown incredibly fast, and because it's only 50 cents, it was worth it to me to not have to walk an additional number of blocks in the heat. The one directional thing was a little weird. It worked out for me, but if I had needed to go 1 or 2 stops the other direction I would have walked.

Anyhow, I look forward to seeing further public transportation developments, because I don't drive currently and that is the biggest con for Detroit for me right now. That and the extreme weather, which are related issues. If public transportation was better I wouldn't have to worry about driving in the snow. But I guess we'll have to learn how to, cause I'm seriously considering relocating.