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Emphasis on "fairly" in the sentence above. People spend thousands of dollars on items all the time and then don't take proper care of them.
What I like about getting a dog from a rescue, IF it doesn't work out for the family, a reputable rescue will take the dog back. Not sure how many breeders will do that but I'm guessing it's a very very small minority.
($4k for a dog? That dog better be able t. spin gold out of straw!)
I believe the stats I read on one of the "stat sites" said that 20 percent of people who get their dog at a shelter, will drop a dog off at a shelter. So, the people who in fact rescue a small percent of the dogs are the very people who send them to death. And you know what, those dogs are already spay/neutered, as they came from the shelter in the first place.
How did the spay/neuter save these dogs lives?
Everybody was so quick to jump on my back and say that breeding is bad and spay neuter is the way to solve the problem, yet, I have not seen anybody take the time to answer my few questions to try to show me that your views are logical, correct or working..
mod cut Your selling one of the dogs you breed removes one potential home for a pound dog. Breeders are complicit in the deaths of these dogs as are the purchasers unless the latter are unaware of the problem.
If you need a citation for my use of arithmetic I'm at a loss.
I do not understand your logic. Why would you think that if I could not find the Poodle that I wanted due to breeding restrictions or because they have all been spayed/neutered, that I would go to the shelter and adopt some dog of another breed?
You are trying to take away a persons right to choose. Do you realize that the majority of pets are not bought from breeders, they are not adopted from rescues or shelters and they are not bought at pet store. The highest number of new pets are given to a friend or family member, or bought from a friend or family member.
Please look on the last page and respond to some of/ or all of the questions I have asked. I will be happy to admit my views were not how I thought things were, nobody has made effort to show me...
Spay/neuter didn't save those dogs lives but it prevented them from being brought back in along with a litter of puppies, or from siring puppies during their adoption. You acknowledge that irresponsible people give dogs up easily, but not that they are irresponsible about keeping their dogs from breeding oops litters. Years ago, shelters used to adopt dogs out with agreements that they be spay/neutered within a certain period of time. This contract was breached so often, with so many unwanted litters resulting, that they started doing the surgery first before allowing the dog to leave with adopters. There is now a law in many areas that shelter pets must be fixed before being adopted out, because otherwise a shelter is not doing much good for the community.
ETA, I'm not arguing that no one should be allowed to breed dogs. But we have to work to prevent accidental litters, and puppy millers need to be put out of business, as well as many bybs.
This is like saying if we sterilize people, we won't have an orphan problem. It's just not true. Look at China with a 1 child limit, they have very high rates of orphans. By law, they have to register their method of birth control.
Even still, there are over 160 million orphans in the world. Even though there are all those orphans, people still pursue infertlility treatments. Not because they believe their bloodline to be better, but they want to know the mother had optimal conditions during pregnancy and they already know their own medical history for genetic diseases. There are many more reasons of course, those are just some of them.
At the end of the day, you can not fault a person for buying a dog or having their own baby, it is what they want to do. Someone having their own baby will not promote our orphan problem any more than a reputable breeder will promote our shelter problem. It is the people who SHOULDN'T BE HAVING KIDS IN THE FIRST PLACE that promote the orphan problem. Same with dogs.
I know someone who just purchased a "purebred" lab from a breeder. There were 11 puppies, and because there were 8 males and 3 females, the "breeder" was selling the males for the reduced price of $800. Wow, someone can make 8-9,000 dollars from letting two dogs do what comes natural??
Gosh, it killed me to be happy for this guy. The puppy is adorable, and my friend really has needed a companion for a while. But, really...the very idea that someone who would "breed" two dogs simply for profit (and to make THIS sort of profit off of it) really got my goat.
Oh geez, and when I heard the other day about the papers...
I'm at a loss, because I find it hard to be angry with my friend for getting this so-called "deal" on a "purebred" lab. It seems to me that the general populace is not educated about this issue. This is the type of dog he wanted, and I don't know for sure, but would guess that he got it off Craigslist. I find it difficult to blame people who do what they do with the information that is readily available. Absent coming onto a site like this, I'm not sure where he would get information regarding backyard breeders.
Yes, I know that people should do their research regarding a pet before getting it, but we all know that oftentimes *should* goes by the wayside when cute puppies are involved.
A truly responsible breeder only breeds something that compliments the other dog and betters the breed. To start, it's no cheap to own those dogs anyways. Also, the cost of owning dogs into maturity and getting the jealth tests + travelling to shows, etc is not cheap. There should be some value associated with all that. Not to mention, it's still taxable.
I've said it before, be mad at the Golden Doodle or Peek APoo or whatever people. They are not showimg their dogs or bettering any breed.
Puppies are the byproduct of excellent dogs from an excellent owner, not the main goal.
No, I don't get it. Really, could you answer a few questions for me, help me to understand, I am willing to see things from another point of view, show me it is the better view point to have. I don't think I am being unreasonable in requesting this.
!)For those who have a bunch of stray dogs roaming the streets, how is a mandatory spay/neuter going to prevent these dogs from breeding?
Um....perhaps you worded this wrong? If a dog is spayed or neutered, it can't breed!
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Are your streets full of puppies or adult dogs? Do you have all breeds stray on the streets, just a few popular breeds?
Go to Miami! You can find plenty of everything! I'm sure it's not just in Miami!
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2)Where do the majority of the dogs in your shelters come from? What are the average age of the dogs that come into shelters?
There is no "average" age. Shelters get puppies, 1 year olds all the way up to seniors. Where do they come from? Well let's see, Steve over here just "had" to allow his dog, Rocky, experience sex just once! Otherwise it's just so cruel!!!!! And, John over there, well, he was looking to make some cash and he could do that if he could get his little Lacy to pop out some puppies he could sell! Hey! Let's breed those two dogs! Everyone wins! Except, that is, the puppies.
OR, people get puppies and realize, "Man, this is HARD!!!" and make up lame ass excuses as to why they can no longer care for the puppy and take them to the pound:
I'm allergic
The baby.....
I'm moving and they don't allow dogs, (this one is such crap)
The list goes on.
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3)If there is a pet overpopulation, how do puppy mills sell all those dogs? Why is dog smuggling becoming a big business if there is an overpopulation, people would not buy dogs.
Most people don't have a clue where their dogs are coming from. Puppy mills sell because too many people want a "specific" type of dog. They actually believe that you can not find that particular breed in the shelter. Oh yes, you can.
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4)Do you REALLY think that is somebody wants a German Shepherd puppy that they will settle for an adult Pitbull from the shelter? You really think that by restricting breeding you can force people to get a dog from the shelter?
Do you REALLY believe that you can't find every single type of dog in a shelter? Oh yes, you can.
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5)Do you REALLY think that taking away our right to choose if we want our animal spay/neutered is going to keep any dogs from dying in a shelter? How many YEARS have we been told, spay/neuter, spay/neuter. As long as I can remember. How many dogs still die in shelters? The spay/neuter idea is not working, ya know why? Because that is not the problem.
Taking away your RIGHT? The hell? It's actually healthier for the animal to BE spayed/neutered! When we raise children, we do whatever it takes to ensure we do whatever is best for THEM! Even if that infringes on our WANTS, (which is what "right" actually is when translated). We should be doing the same for the animals that we adopt and take in to our homes.
See, when you (general you), adopt an animal, you are making a promise to that animal. You are promising to care for that animal to the absolute best of your ability. Breeding your dog because you WANT to, does not benefit your dog.
Allowing your dog to roam around unaltered does NOT benefit your dog NOR does it benefit someone elses dog if they both happen to get out and meet up. (And this happens all the time to the utter and complete shock to many. "Why! I never thought that would happen!!")
Yes, it IS the problem. If you do not spay and neuter your animal, your animal can make more animals. And then those animals make more animals. And then those animals make more animals. Considering that dogs can have multiple in their litters, it only takes a generation or two before things spiral out of control. You started with one, now you have 40! Guess what?! A chunk of that 40 is going to end up...where? IN THE SHELTER. Why? Because, hey, guess they weren't the "right breed". Or the breeder couldn't find a home for the last 10? Or because the puppy was "OMG so CUTE!!!!!!" until it peed on the carpet and ate my shoes! So now we have ANOTHER dog in the shelter that did NOT need to be there.
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Please, I look forward to your responses, I am open to changing my view points. Please help me understand how mandatory spay/neuter is the answer.
Oh, first, we should identify the problem, to make sure we are all working on the same problem. The problem is perfectly healthy dogs, from puppy to seniors, who are adoptable animals are being killed in shelters. That is what we are addressing, right?
Emphasis on "fairly" in the sentence above. People spend thousands of dollars on items all the time and then don't take proper care of them.
This it true, and more folks take poor care of something they got that was cheep.
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Originally Posted by atina33
What I like about getting a dog from a rescue, IF it doesn't work out for the family, a reputable rescue will take the dog back. Not sure how many breeders will do that but I'm guessing it's a very very small minority.
We will take it back, most do.
Dogs go for much more. pups start at $800 and up.
I've even had 8wk old pups go for 8k.(more on this below)
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Originally Posted by atina33
($4k for a dog? That dog better be able to spin gold out of straw!)
It starts out as a labor of love,
Then you invest thousands and thousands into facility's,
Heck titling one dog alone can take 9-20k, We go to Germany and work and title our dogs there .
It takes years of work & countless hrs of love.
Breeding takes a male and a female.
(we own both the male and female)
vet bills, deaths, food, new blood, raise your own replacements, handlers, helpers. etc etc.
Yea it's a job, it's a business and it's a labor of love for a breed.
You can't offer some of the best dogs or pups to your clientele just breeding AKC registered dogs.
So you figure it out.
Years of training.
Your dogs are ranked as some of the best in the world.(Breed worth)
ScHh III Kkl1a titled. breed worth in the single digets.
A litter 11 pups the cheapest 4k the most expensive 8k. 6m,5f
With out profit I can't afford to do this.
With out profit I would need a job to do this.
With out profit I can not offer the best.
More goes into a pup than 8wks of care.
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Originally Posted by mishigas73
I know someone who just purchased a "purebred" lab from a breeder. There were 11 puppies, and because there were 8 males and 3 females, the "breeder" was selling the males for the reduced price of $800. Wow, someone can make 8-9,000 dollars from letting two dogs do what comes natural??
Gosh, it killed me to be happy for this guy. The puppy is adorable, and my friend really has needed a companion for a while. But, really...the very idea that someone who would "breed" two dogs simply for profit (and to make THIS sort of profit off of it) really got my goat.
Oh geez, and when I heard the other day about the papers...
Dogs from our kennel go from loved pets to police work to service dogs, 8 dogs at ground zero came from our kennels and you might have seen dogs and pups from our kennel in the movies.
ps we would never advertise on CL nor would I recommend anyone buy from a CL add.
Last edited by snofarmer; 10-30-2012 at 08:39 PM..
Great post, SNO.True Labor of Love. Our dogs come from Germany, too...just a different breed. Anyone who thinks having puppies is easy is sadly mistaken.
And a reputable breeder WANTS their dog back, if something doesn't work out. Not that it is a throwaway item, but people are what they are. As a matter of fact, with our litter next year I am trying to figure out how to get the Microchip to read two names. Mine and the new puppy owners, so if it does ever become lost or turned in, I will find out immediately and I can get the dog myself.
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Anyone who thinks having puppies is easy is sadly mistaken. 