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OP, it is impossible to give advice because I don't know what happened and you don't really know what happened. The dog did not bite your child. If the dog bit, your child would be missing half her face. The dog gave a nip, or much more likely, the dog gave a tooth knock, which is how puppies are corrected. It hurts but doesn't do a lot of damage. Because your child has no protective fur on her face, she ended up with a scratch.
It is your decision about the dog. My advice is to focus on making sure that child does not develop a fear of dogs from this incident.
I have a young niece who is obsessed with my dog, but has no idea how to *act* around dogs. She constantly gets in his face, hugs him too tight, forces him to look at her (grabs his face), and generally invades his space well beyond what he can handle. He does NOT like that behavior. And while he's never done anything to her, I know that it is a possibility if she goes too far.
Whenever she's around I constantly tell her how to behave around dogs, and the types of behaviors that dogs see as threats. And I can tell her 100 times what NOT to do, and five minutes later she'll do it anyway because she can't help herself and wants to "win" the dog over. Unfortunately, it clearly stresses out my dog, to the point where he actively tries to get away from her. And so before anything bad can happen I usually remove the dog to another room and don't allow her near him. I then tell my sister that her daughter is stressing out my dog. Fortunately, my sister and I grew up with dogs, so she understands what I mean and is quick to admonish her daughter to leave my dog alone or else she might get bit and it won't be the dog's fault.
Even the best dogs in the world have "triggers" that cause them to get stressed and react. Chances are your very young daughter still does not understand about animal boundaries, and her attempt to be sweet with him was just too much for him to handle.
Sorry but I disagree. Unless you've had any dog, I don't care where it came from, starting from puppy age you most likely have no idea it's background. When a dog gets turned into a shelter 99% of the time you don't know why. Could be housetraining issues, escaping, aggression, who knows. You are taking a risk. Some wind up with a rescue due to old age, death of owners, etc. Those dogs you may be able to get more info.
LOL.....
mmkay.... whatever.....
I put NO STORE at all in the words of someone who dumps a 12 year old dog because he (she?) can't be bothered to spend a little time keeping dog and baby safe......
Quote:
Originally Posted by mic111
OP,
Due to the anonymity of an online forum I'm going to say something that I haven't been able to say to my poor placements. Please bring the dog back. I have had basically your family adopt a foster of mine. Parents with 2 young girls. Dog was not with me long enough to evaluate with children. We have none. Dog was calm, small size, walked well on a leash and well tolerated the children meeting him. A couple of weeks after the adoption the dog snapped at one of the girls friends who was sitting on the couch with her but the dog was between the girl and the friend.
I so wanted that dog to come back for a better placement but they wanted to try. They wanted to train. They were lovely people. A couple of years later the dog did come back. The family got a divorce, moved to an apartment, kicked the dog off of sleeping on the bed because of new comforters and the dog started to bark all day in the apt. We placed the dog with a gay couple, no kids, who had adopted another dog out of the same hoarding situation. The dog was now living with 2 adults, could sleep on the bed, and had his best friend back from his original home.
There really is a better home for this dog.
Another case in point. We had a foster dog in a home with lovely people. Family with kids, another dog and a cat. But the foster dog was not thriving. Basically he stayed under the coffee table all day hiding. House was simply too active for him. I went to pick him up after he was there for 4 months with no progress. They were very concerned that he was not going to find a good home. They asked if I planned to keep him. I said no but he would find a good home. They said he always had a place with them if for some reason he could not find a place. As soon as I put him in the car crate he lost bowl control because he was so terrified.
Got him to my house and he was frozen. Sat in a crate with the door open. He just watched my two older female dogs who basically left him alone. He would not go outside on his own. Had to be carried in and out to use the bathroom. He would not come in. He had to have a long line on his collar so we could catch him in the yard to bring him in. He eventually moved to an upstairs bedroom as far in the house as he could get from everyone else. It took about 4 months for him to move out of that room on his own and stare at us between the banisters. It took a year for him to go out the door on his own. He barked maniacally at anyone who looked at him. We decided no training, no socialization. Just calm existence. He liked 2 things. My other dogs and dog walks although anything man made terrified him. Somehow my other 2 dogs knew and so they walked on either side of him like railings and he was happy as a clam bouncing between their bodies as they went for walks.
This dog really needed calm confident dogs to show him that humans and their household were OK. He hero worshiped my other dogs. Us he ignored or feared. Now he is a velcro dog. Follows me everywhere. Sleeps against my leg, knows basic commands like sit and down, comes when called, stands calmly while I talk to people (we ask everyone to not pet him), occasionally will go meet someone if I'm talking to them long enough, walks well on a leash and enjoys being out and about, uses the dog door etc. But he would never have gotten to where he is without being able to read from my other dogs that we were OK, the situations he was in were OK, that man made objects were OK etc.
From what I've seen there is always a good home for a dog. Sometimes it takes alot to get there. An inexperienced foster or rescue can easily make a poor placement. I've done it myself. Especially when one is new and aren't familiar with the breadth of types of homes out there it is easy to grab the first opportunity. As I gained more experience the better I got at turning people down who desperately wanted a particular dog but were not a good fit for the dog.
In my opinion you are not a good fit for this dog. It is not because you are not lovely compassionate people. You are. In fact if I were working with you I would love to find you the right dog. But I would really want you to make the hard decision to return this dog. This dog deserves to be happy and having him in a home that makes him uncomfortable is not going to make him happy.
Believe me when I say there is a retired couple who wants an older large black dog to scare off potential intruders, there is an older lady who wants a calm companion, there is a gay couple who wants a companion for their older dog who just lost it's older companion etc. Black dogs are the most intimidating even if they are marshmallows. There is a market for that in the placement community. A mature dog that doesn't eat shoes, the remote control etc is also a dog that has a market.
Once the rescue starts advertising him properly he will find his mark. Their mistake was advertising that he was a family dog who loves all people. So they got the wrong audience. If they advertise him as what he is he will find the right placement. Something like "Large black dog with intimidating presence but loves all adults. Calm in the home, will not destroy possessions. Has not lived in a home environment prior to the foster so would be best with another canine companion to show him the ropes." Or if he truly loves dogs then the last line should be "Loves dogs and should have another canine companion to keep him company."
Can you see how this description of his ideal home just doesn't fit your household and never will? I'm not trying to be harsh but his reality is he will be stuck living in a house with kids who scare or bother him for the rest of his life if he stays with you.
I repped you, but this post needs 1,000 reps......
I, too, have made a few poor placements..... you go do the home visit and everything seems just peachy, but once the dog is actually living in the home for a week or a month or even longer, things change.....
We beat ourselves up over it.... How could I have NOT picked up on what the adopter was actually going to do?? or how the relationship between the adopter and dog would develop.....
I SOOOOO wish we had some sort of crystal ball for these situations.....
Kids can, and often are an annoyance to dogs. When we would have social events, and people would bring their toddlers, they would often literally TORMENT my dog. He was tall, so their head height while standing was about the same as his. They would get in his face, pull his ears, pull his tail, try to ride him, etc. He was a pretty docile guy, so would just slink off to anther room to be left alone. He never nipped, nor bit. However, I ALWAYS kept my eye on him, and if the kids got too rough I would move him to another room just like the poster above. God bless him for his patience, but all dogs are not like that. My point is that kids can be abusive. Not saying the OP's was.
Kids can, and often are an annoyance to dogs. When we would have social events, and people would bring their toddlers, they would often literally TORMENT my dog. He was tall, so their head height while standing was about the same as his. They would get in his face, pull his ears, pull his tail, try to ride him, etc. He was a pretty docile guy, so would just slink off to anther room to be left alone. He never nipped, nor bit. However, I ALWAYS kept my eye on him, and if the kids got too rough I would move him to another room just like the poster above. God bless him for his patience, but all dogs are not like that. My point is that kids can be abusive. Not saying the OP's was.
I'd be removing the kids before I'd remove the dog from the room. It's your dog's home, not theirs.
I'd be removing the kids before I'd remove the dog from the room. It's your dog's home, not theirs.
Well we didn't have any kids in the house, and our parties were kids were in attendance were VERY rare, but I get your point. He didn't have to deal with kids hardly at all. The dog, a German Shorthaired Pointer had way more patience than I have!
I put NO STORE at all in the words of someone who dumps a 12 year old dog because he (she?) can't be bothered to spend a little time keeping dog and baby safe......
I repped you, but this post needs 1,000 reps......
I, too, have made a few poor placements..... you go do the home visit and everything seems just peachy, but once the dog is actually living in the home for a week or a month or even longer, things change.....
We beat ourselves up over it.... How could I have NOT picked up on what the adopter was actually going to do?? or how the relationship between the adopter and dog would develop.....
I SOOOOO wish we had some sort of crystal ball for these situations.....
I understand your passion, but don't you think we, the adopters, wish we had crystal balls too? Why do people lump everyone together and generalize? I know, that as volunteers, you come across a LOT of scenarios and the animals get the short end but lets not denigrate all adopters of having nefarious purposes here.
Is it just possible that it's just not a good fit? A home visit can reveal but so much. Just like you beat yourself up don't you think the "failed adopter" who actually cares about the animals that cross their threshold "beats him/herself up" too? "Good with all people" does not mean "works with younger children". He's a great dog but he's only been exposed to adults in his life.
I just want to mention my daughter did NOT assault the dog. Please folks don't generalize all small children as hellions who torment animals. She made the mistake of not picking up on his cues and continuing to touch him. No one is at fault here, her, or the dog. It's an unfortunate situation but after really evaluating the sum total, I agree with mic. This dog was never exposed to children in an intimate environment like a house. He is better suited with adults (his body language, once I think about it clearly shows this) and if I really do care about him, I'd have him go to a home where he'd feel comfortable. Which is what I'm going to do, with heavy heart. He's going back to his foster house, who is a single woman with no kids. Mic's post and OverItAll's, combined with my correspondence with the owner of the rescue who is also a mother of two, have helped me reach a decision that was best for everyone involved.
I wasn't holding on to the dog because I felt he wouldn't be adoptable. I couldn't make a firm decision because OUR FAMILY LEGITIMATELY WAS BONDING WITH THE DOG. My youngest daughter is going to be very upset about the dog being returned and we're going to have to address that, plus making sure she doesn't fear dogs after this. But we're doing the right thing now by doing this.
This isn't a response to the OP, just a general discussion on dogs and people based on the other posts of people who have dogs that don't like kids. So it is off topic to the OPs original post. I applaud the OP for the thought she has given this and her final decision.
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Having dogs has been a learning experience from dog #1.
My first dog was a chow mixed who looked like a teddy bear. He was adorably cute. I took him hiking all the time. People always tried to pet and hug him. He got fed up and started snapping at them. I was confused as to why he didn't like all these nice people trying to pet and hug him. A forest ranger I met on the trail just after he snapped at someone set me straight. She said look, how would you like it if you were walking down a street in NYC and random strangers came up and started touching and hugging you. I thought about it and was like wow! I totally got her point and started asking people not to pet him. Some people still tried to sneak a pat in as they walked by. Sometimes he snapped at them and sometimes not but I really couldn't blame him. He never initiated any aggression. He only responded to people trying to touch him when he did not want to be touched. He never actually bit anyone, it was all warning air snaps to tell them to get away from him and leave him alone.
At home he did not like to have guests in the house. I would introduce him to guests and then put him in my bedroom because I knew people could not resist the urge to love on him, hug him and pet him. I could not monitor their actions all the time so he was safest away from the group. However kids would go back to the bedroom, open the door and try to pet him. I was worried. This dog liked to snap at kids who try to pet him. So I locked him in the crate. He loved being in the crate where random people he did not know couldn't touch him. But well meaning, compassionate visitors to my home would sneak back into the bedroom and unlock the crate! They felt it was abuse for him to be in there for the short time they were in my home. Besides, he was cute, they wanted to pet him and that trumped all else in their minds. I had to make it out like he was cujo to get them to leave the poor dog alone. His cuteness was that overwhelming to people!
I now have another super cute dog. He is the one I described before that was completely shut down. When the doorbell rings he immediately runs right to the crate in the master bedroom where he knows no one will try to pet him. I have never once put him in this crate. He does it instinctively.
My other dog is bigger and people ask me if they can pet her. Even kids. I look at her and look at the kids and decide case by case. Adults she is OK with. A group of kids I always say either no or one at a time and have them line up. I've learned a group of 2 or more kids will swarm a dog and even she, who is tolerant, gets nervous. But now that she is 12 I always say no to the kids. I explain to the parents that she has arthritis and only wants to be petted a certain way or she can snap (which she doesn't but I still say she will). I've found as my dogs age they generally don't want a bunch of new interactions with people or affection from strangers. They like to ride in the car, go places, chase rabbits etc but they can live without meeting most people. Sometimes they ask to meet older adults. I think they like the calm settled vibe given off by older people.
I understand your passion, but don't you think we, the adopters, wish we had crystal balls too? Why do people lump everyone together and generalize? I know, that as volunteers, you come across a LOT of scenarios and the animals get the short end but lets not denigrate all adopters of having nefarious purposes here.
Is it just possible that it's just not a good fit? A home visit can reveal but so much. Just like you beat yourself up don't you think the "failed adopter" who actually cares about the animals that cross their threshold "beats him/herself up" too? "Good with all people" does not mean "works with younger children". He's a great dog but he's only been exposed to adults in his life.
I just want to mention my daughter did NOT assault the dog. Please folks don't generalize all small children as hellions who torment animals. She made the mistake of not picking up on his cues and continuing to touch him. No one is at fault here, her, or the dog. It's an unfortunate situation but after really evaluating the sum total, I agree with mic. This dog was never exposed to children in an intimate environment like a house. He is better suited with adults (his body language, once I think about it clearly shows this) and if I really do care about him, I'd have him go to a home where he'd feel comfortable. Which is what I'm going to do, with heavy heart. He's going back to his foster house, who is a single woman with no kids. Mic's post and OverItAll's, combined with my correspondence with the owner of the rescue who is also a mother of two, have helped me reach a decision that was best for everyone involved.
I wasn't holding on to the dog because I felt he wouldn't be adoptable. I couldn't make a firm decision because OUR FAMILY LEGITIMATELY WAS BONDING WITH THE DOG. My youngest daughter is going to be very upset about the dog being returned and we're going to have to address that, plus making sure she doesn't fear dogs after this. But we're doing the right thing now by doing this.
my apologies..... I was not denigrating you or your situation and did not mean to come across as such.... My heart is breaking for all of you..... I was just talking about the difficulties faced by rescue organizations when trying to place a dog in the right situation..... Unfortunately, as hard as we try, mistakes are made. Your situation is one of the few returns that I would think "legitimate." Most of the returns that I have been involved with have been just stupidity or impatience or ignorance on the part of the adopter that I did not pick up on, as carefully as I and the other board members try. We just had one very carefully screened adopter dump her dog into the Humane Society because she was going out of town for 2 weeks and her mother did not want to care for the dog for her..... This is a VERY timid, frightened chihuahua that she had had for about a month..... She dumped him there because she did not want to drive all the way back to his foster's house to return him in spite of signing a contract that that was EXACTLY what she would do if the adoption did not work, for WHATEVER reason..... I, or one of our other volunteers, would have gladly driven to her house to pick him up, but she didn't have time to wait..... Like she didn't know about this trip abroad until the day before she was leaving?? Thank Goodness he was chipped and she never changed it to her name......
I had another adopter return a dog after about two weeks, because he wouldn't stop marking in her house..... she hemmed and hawed about what she had done to try to manage the problem and cried big ol' crocodile tears as she handed him over to me on her way to a shopping expedition in a town south of me.....
Maybe this has made me cynical......
I think the foster should have been more honest with you about the dog's lack of experience with children...... I have a 12-1/2 year old girl who was great with kids in her younger years, but now that she is dealing with more arthritis and losing her sight, I don't trust her with children..... I don't want to set her up for failure..... In fact, of my six dogs, only one do I trust with children and he is my largest fella who happens to be TERRIFIED of other dogs bigger than about 20 lbs or so.
I would NEVER have placed a large senior fella with little to no child experience in a home with a 6 year old, unless there was already at least one other dog that had been in the home for an extended period of time......
I hope that you and your family will go on to find the perfect companion that is better suited to your situation......
Last edited by latetotheparty; 08-22-2017 at 02:55 PM..
I put NO STORE at all in the words of someone who dumps a 12 year old dog because he (she?) can't be bothered to spend a little time keeping dog and baby safe......
I repped you, but this post needs 1,000 reps......
I, too, have made a few poor placements..... you go do the home visit and everything seems just peachy, but once the dog is actually living in the home for a week or a month or even longer, things change.....
We beat ourselves up over it.... How could I have NOT picked up on what the adopter was actually going to do?? or how the relationship between the adopter and dog would develop.....
I SOOOOO wish we had some sort of crystal ball for these situations.....
I dont care what you think. My daughter comes before any animal.
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