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Consider Ivory that at 15, looking pretty average is exactly what many gifted kids want to be. They want to be as popular as the next kid does. They don't want to stick out. Girls want to giggle about boys and try out nail polish. Boys want to be average fifteen year old boys. How does a desire to fit in have anything to do with their innate abilities?
I really am bewildered by the disdain in which you seem to hold G&T kids and programs. It almost seems like you have mastered the art of Doublethink. War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength. Smart is stupid?
No disdain here. I just don't see G&T programs yeilding results. I wonder if we wouldn't be better off with the G&T kids in the regular classroom as role models.
I, honestly, do not see how G&T helped dd one bit. I think that her double promotions hurt her. At the time, we were concerned with "challenging" her, as if that would make some kind of difference. I, really, don't think it did. So she takes college calculus at 15. Whoop-dee-doo. What does that accomplish? Will she learn calculus better because she took it younger?
I have a feeling that 10 years from now NONE of this will make one iota of difference. In retrospect, I don't see the point of a special education that doesn't yeild different results. Of course my dd doesn't have an IQ of 180+ where you'd expect kids to be so different they don't fit in. She's just faster than the other kids. I'm starting to realize that in the big scheme of things, that doesn't mean anything.
I watched my friends in high school (I was the token avereage kid in the group) go from being gifted to being averge. For all the hoopla about their abilities, they're just like the rest of us. The ones who have excelled didn't do so because of intelligence. They did so because of drive to succeed. I've come to the conclusion that it's not IQ we should be putting on a pedestal. It's drive.
It's not how high your IQ is. It's what you do with the IQ you have. (FTR, before someone asks, I don't have drive either. I just see that it's the people who do who really succeed in life.) I'm not buying that high IQ kids (not talking about true genius' here) need a different education. I'm not seeing where it accomplishes anything other than to make them stand out...or is that the point? To say MY CHILD is in a G&T program?
Einstein did not have a G&T program and look what he did. In fact, his elementary school teachers thought him too stupid to learn. I'm really not seeing the point of G&T and my dd spent 4 years on such a program and is on an accelerated high school track now. I'm finding myself wishing we'd never put her in that program in the first place. I think life would be different for her if she were the same age as the kids she attends classes with.
If giftedness doesn't breed success, what good is it?
It is as good (or useless) as a person makes it. It's no different from any other talent. Some people do a tremendous amount with the talents they have, others do not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
If you can't use your gifts, you might as well not have them. If giving someone a G&T education yeilds no results, why bother?
Gifted education gives people a chance to develop their talents but it doesn't ensure that 100% of the people who are gifted will take what they are given and do great things with it. All education can do is provide opportunities. There is no way to guarantee results.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
It seems to me people just want to wear the label and have their kids wear the label to have a label. That's just silly. Intelligence is as intelligence does not as intelligence could do if they felt like it. I don't care how high your IQ is. If you don't/can't use it, you might as well not have it. You certainly don't need more spent on your education, that's for sure.
I believe all children are entitled to a free and appropriate public education whether they are gifted, special education, or average. What they do with that education as an adult is up to them.
It is as good (or useless) as a person makes it. It's no different from any other talent. Some people do a tremendous amount with the talents they have, others do not.
Gifted education gives people a chance to develop their talents but it doesn't ensure that 100% of the people who are gifted will take what they are given and do great things with it. All education can do is provide opportunities. There is no way to guarantee results.
I believe all children are entitled to a free and appropriate public education whether they are gifted, special education, or average. What they do with that education as an adult is up to them.
In theory I agree with you but in reality, I am not seeing any of this making one bit of difference. I think this is one of those things that people think makes a difference because it seems logical it should make a difference. However, I'm not seeing the difference which leaves me wondering "What's the point?"
In theory I agree with you but in reality, I am not seeing any of this making one bit of difference. I think this is one of those things that people think makes a difference because it seems logical it should make a difference. However, I'm not seeing the difference which leaves me wondering "What's the point?"
I think that an appropriate education makes a big difference. I am not a fan of the type of program your dd is in. I like to see kids stay with kids close to their own age. My sons are not in a gifted program per se, but rather they take honors and AP classes with kids their own age (or close to their own age).
My son is accelerated 2 years in foreign language but is in class with other 8th graders. He is accelerated 2 years in math but is in class with 8/9th graders. He is accelerated 1 year in science and is class with other 8th graders. History and language arts are honors classes that are more in depth than on level classes.
I do see the gifted kids from my oldest son's year (freshman year in college) doing extremely well in college. They have gone to some of the best colleges in the country and most of them are excelling in those colleges.
I can definitely say that being able to take challenging classes in high school has helped my son be successful in college. He is on track to graduate with a dual degree in 7 semesters and his grades have been very high.
I don't understand why you seem so disdainful of the gifted and so disdainful of your own students who want to do well in school.
No disdain here. I just don't see G&T programs yeilding results. I wonder if we wouldn't be better off with the G&T kids in the regular classroom as role models.
What, and have the whole class alternately in detention or zoning out with a book in the back row?
I don't understand why you seem so disdainful of the gifted and so disdainful of your own students who want to do well in school.
I'm not going to speak for IT, but my "disdain" for "gifted" education comes from the culture that it spawns in parents which eventually make its way to children. As I alluded too when I first started posting in this topic, children come to believe their educational output is determined by innate factors. Looking at some keywords that people have been posting in this thread shows why with words like "talent", "gifted", "smart", "Einstein", and "intelligent" which all basically mean that a number given on a test sums up that person. I once saw a researcher from Stanford give a lecture about how those signals affect children and their potential in learning. Children who get those signals don't have a lot of self-efficacy because they believe they do not have what it takes intellectually to complete a task.
Furthermore, good educators should already be differentiating their instruction to accommodate students who are getting supplemental help at home and vice versa since that is what it really comes down to. There's a reason why G&T programs are represented mostly by white high SES students and it's not because low SES students are less capable contrary to what some people want to believe. It's because they get that extra stimulation at home and the less advantaged children end up suffering due to our own biases about children with G&T labels. This thread is a good example of a collection of parents who would be invested enough in their childs education to want their children getting the hardest material they can.
I wanted to refrain from using personal anecdotes, but in a private correspondence, I once told someone that I was very introverted as a reason for not doing something. Growing up that introversion has been working to my advantage ever since I was in pre-school. I did not have parents who went to college, but I often kept to myself watching educational programming instead of saturday morning cartoons, using my $2 allowance to buy books instead of candy and so fourth. I did all of this to keep myself entertained since I found those things interesting. It got to the point that I was already several steps ahead of my peers which was due to my intense interest in things that were learning related. I eventually started going to a G&T school and I can't even begin to recall how many times my parents and other adults showered me with praise of being "smart" and going to the "smart school". It became very annoying that I was getting special treatment due to a label. When it came time to apply to an IB program my parents became very adamant about me doing it and at that point I was fed up with the special treatment. I did several things to resist going. I got in trouble for refusing to sign the documents letting me into the program, I told the people testing me that I did not want be in their program, and during the entrance exam I purposely didn't answer any questions correctly and rewrote the essay prompt on the answer sheet so they wouldn't accuse me of not trying. I went to the "regular" high school and I found it a very humbling experience to be around other kids who taught me how to have a social life and be humble. I still took honors and AP courses and excelled in them,went to college, and graduated undergrad early. I don't regret my decisions. That period of my life seemed like it happened a long time ago. At this point in my life, no one is going to be asking what special programs I was in or if I have an IB diploma and I think that is the point IvoryTickler is getting at. Parents can certainly believe their child is a special snowflake who is going to change the world, but the truth of the matter is that is that they're going to go to school, graduate, get a job, get married, raise a family, grow old, and retire just like the other people who they think are below their childs label.
I'm not going to speak for IT, but my "disdain" for "gifted" education comes from the culture that it spawns in parents which eventually make its way to children. As I alluded too when I first started posting in this topic, children come to believe their educational output is determined by innate factors. Looking at some keywords that people have been posting in this thread shows why with words like "talent", "gifted", "smart", "Einstein", and "intelligent" which all basically mean that a number given on a test sums up that person. I once saw a researcher from Stanford give a lecture about how those signals affect children and their potential in learning. Children who get those signals don't have a lot of self-efficacy because they believe they do not have what it takes intellectually to complete a task.
Furthermore, good educators should already be differentiating their instruction to accommodate students who are getting supplemental help at home and vice versa since that is what it really comes down to. There's a reason why G&T programs are represented mostly by white high SES students and it's not because low SES students are less capable contrary to what some people want to believe. It's because they get that extra stimulation at home and the less advantaged children end up suffering due to our own biases about children with G&T labels. This thread is a good example of a collection of parents who would be invested enough in their childs education to want their children getting the hardest material they can.
I wanted to refrain from using personal anecdotes, but in a private correspondence, I once told someone that I was very introverted as a reason for not doing something. Growing up that introversion has been working to my advantage ever since I was in pre-school. I did not have parents who went to college, but I often kept to myself watching educational programming instead of saturday morning cartoons, using my $2 allowance to buy books instead of candy and so fourth. I did all of this to keep myself entertained since I found those things interesting. It got to the point that I was already several steps ahead of my peers which was due to my intense interest in things that were learning related. I eventually started going to a G&T school and I can't even begin to recall how many times my parents and other adults showered me with praise of being "smart" and going to the "smart school". It became very annoying that I was getting special treatment due to a label. When it came time to apply to an IB program my parents became very adamant about me doing it and at that point I was fed up with the special treatment. I did several things to resist going. I got in trouble for refusing to sign the documents letting me into the program, I told the people testing me that I did not want be in their program, and during the entrance exam I purposely didn't answer any questions correctly and rewrote the essay prompt on the answer sheet so they wouldn't accuse me of not trying. I went to the "regular" high school and I found it a very humbling experience to be around other kids who taught me how to have a social life and be humble. I still took honors and AP courses and excelled in them,went to college, and graduated undergrad early. I don't regret my decisions. That period of my life seemed like it happened a long time ago. At this point in my life, no one is going to be asking what special programs I was in or if I have an IB diploma and I think that is the point IvoryTickler is getting at. Parents can certainly believe their child is a special snowflake who is going to change the world, but the truth of the matter is that is that they're going to go to school, graduate, get a job, get married, raise a family, grow old, and retire just like the other people who they think are below their childs label.
ITA! We are celebrating "smart" being something you ARE instead of something you DO when the doing is way more important than the being. In the end, the vast majority of us end up somewhere in the middle and, as someone else posted, half of those at the top, didn't start out as "gifted". It's not gifts that we should be celebrating.
When I look at my daughter I have to wonder what would have happened if we'd left her back with her peers. Maybe a little more maturity before she took AP classes might have helped. Maybe, like you, she's just tired of the expectations that come with the label. Whatever the case, I don't see any of this helping to motivate her to do more when it's the doing that matters.
Thomas Edison started out working in a patent office and after reading hundreds of patents, started inventing. He wasn't just born with an IQ of whatever. He did something. I'm questioning why we're celebrating being born with a high IQ when someone with a lower IQ willing to put in hard work can pass them right by. I think we should be putting the emphasis on hard work regardless of IQ. I think we have this backwards.
My best friend in high school had an IQ of 180. Einstein had an IQ of 160. My friend dropped out of college and has had one dead end job after another (but she's a great partner for Trivial Pursuit!!). Einstein changed the world. If IQ were all it's cracked up to be, she should have lit the world on fire. She didn't. Why? She chose to be instead of do. Einstein did.
We are putting the cart before the horse. We need to teach our kids to work hard. Unto those who are given much, much is expected. At least there should be.
Parents can certainly believe their child is a special snowflake who is going to change the world, but the truth of the matter is that is that they're going to go to school, graduate, get a job, get married, raise a family, grow old, and retire just like the other people who they think are below their childs label.
Yet another arrow towards parents of gifted students. Gifted students are not special snowflakes. They are students who are entitled to a free and appropriate public school education. They are entitled to the same thing that every other student. They should not be pushed off to the back of the room because they are smart and will get it no matter what the teacher does or says. They are entitled to have a curriculum that reflects their abilities.
It has nothing to do with labels and everything to do with meeting the needs of ALL students, not just the average ones.
Yet another arrow towards parents of gifted students. Gifted students are not special snowflakes. They are students who are entitled to a free and appropriate public school education. They are entitled to the same thing that every other student. They should not be pushed off to the back of the room because they are smart and will get it no matter what the teacher does or says. They are entitled to have a curriculum that reflects their abilities.
It has nothing to do with labels and everything to do with meeting the needs of ALL students, not just the average ones.
Are you missing the fact I am the mother of a "gifted" child? IMO, the thing she needed to learn the most (to put in effort) is the thing she has failed to learn. I've come to the conclusion that we (collective we) should not have given her more because she's gifted, we should have EXPECTED more of her because she's gifted. We got this wrong. Her gifts aren't the thing to celebrate. What she does with them is. If she chooses to do nothing with them, she is no different than the average kid sitting in class.
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The ones who don't want to be there are another issue.
Q
ITA! We are celebrating "smart" being something you ARE instead of something you DO when the doing is way more important than the being. In the end, the vast majority of us end up somewhere in the middle and, as someone else posted, half of those at the top, didn't start out as "gifted". It's not gifts that we should be celebrating. 
