If the trades are such great jobs, then why isn’t trade school more heavily promoted ? (require, assistant)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The tough work in roofing, pipefitting, field welding, oil field work, cowboy/ranch work, ditch digging etc. Very few women have the combination of interest, physical strength and frankly toughness required for these and many other trade jobs. As I write most men don't either.
While I'm glad to see it changing around here, for the longest time what the various trades and VoTech (here in TN we have colleges, community colleges which are basically first two years plus para professional programs and then separate VoTech schools (called Colleges of Applied Technology) were fighting was the education system pushing kids toward college. Teachers, counselors, etc were all pushing college for everyone so the trades weren't getting a fair shake in the discussion. Even with all that only about a third of students when on to higher ed.
Simply put, by that time a lot of students are just sick of school. That's why I really like the older VoTech high school concept rather than as a post high school program. They could get the VoTech training they needed by the time they graduated high school, spent the school day learning things they wanted to learn, and didn't waste time in classes that for them were non value added.
I think states like NY wanted the kids who weren't college material to get disgusted and drop out so the state didn't have to pay for their high school education. Kids who couldn't grasp the academic program were practically labeled "learning disabled" when the general diploma wasn't available to them any longer in certain states. It's a disgrace what was done to those kids, my good friend who was a wonderful teacher in the NYC school system agreed with me.
They would at least know whether they wanted to go into an academic field requiring college...or something else.
Now they are, in both directions. The high-achieving high schoolers can take AP (honors) courses that practically duplicate the gen ed college courses (in some cases, actually providing college credit). The middling high school students wind up taking remedial courses for what they didn't learn in high school.
Colleges foster that attitude, making college life as much fun as possible.
I think the point there is that so many don't learn what they needed to know to get a job.
I agree with everything you said. The last part is what I don't understand. When I went through everyone I knew had a goal they were targeting with their education, except for one or two who were milking an inheritance. No different when my kids were in college, and we met their friends. The only people who weren't negotiating offers before graduation really didn't want one.
The idea that they didn't learn what they needed in college is so different from the people I knew that I can't picture it unless weren't trying.
I agree with everything you said. The last part is what I don't understand. When I went through everyone I knew had a goal they were targeting with their education, except for one or two who were milking an inheritance. No different when my kids were in college, and we met their friends. The only people who weren't negotiating offers before graduation really didn't want one.
The idea that they didn't learn what they needed in college is so different from the people I knew that I can't picture it unless weren't trying.
It's because so many jobs have been made (by HR gatekeepers) to require a bachelor's degree that don't really require a bachelor's degree. There's no bachelor's degree that actually provides the knowledge for those jobs.
Most IT jobs, to be frank, are really trades, for instance. Most administrative jobs could and should on-the-job training. A college degree might be useful when reaching the management ranks...and by the time a person is contemplating management, they'd know just what kind of degree they needed.
A lot of high school teachers don't even know it. When districts began skill-testing teachers, many of them who weren't math teachers were flunking the math portions of their tests and complaining, "We aren't math teachers...why do we have to know math?"
Well, how in hell are they going to convince high school students who don't intend to be math teachers that they should study math in high school?
It's because so many jobs have been made (by HR gatekeepers) to require a bachelor's degree that don't really require a bachelor's degree. There's no bachelor's degree that actually provides the knowledge for those jobs.
Most IT jobs, to be frank, are really trades, for instance. Most administrative jobs could and should on-the-job training. A college degree might be useful when reaching the management ranks...and by the time a person is contemplating management, they'd know just what kind of degree they needed.
A lot of high school teachers don't even know it. When districts began skill-testing teachers, many of them who weren't math teachers were flunking the math portions of their tests and complaining, "We aren't math teachers...why do we have to know math?"
Well, how in hell are they going to convince high school students who don't intend to be math teachers that they should study math in high school?
IMO that logic is way too transactional.
1. HR gatekeepers are not in charge. Ultimately HR does not make the call as to who needs a degree. Protocols and job requirements are developed by heads of departments and the CEO who tell HR what to do. Put another way HR amongst companies of any size is subservient to finance, IT, marketing and law and R&D and other departments when applicable.
2. IT is an odd area as IT has become a catchall term that covers everyone from PC-Helpdesk and phone support to cyber security, tech and business side coding to all manner of legit engineering to technically oriented and frankly sometimes not technically oriented management and more. The fact is the overwhelming majority of businesses now require degrees for 90-95% of these jobs because overtime not only because of specific acquired knowledge advantages but because people with degrees as a cadre have proved much more likely to flourish than non-degree holders. The same logic applies to many fields.........just because some people without degrees can do the job doesn't refine the search as well enough.
3. Waiting to earn a degree mid-career while often a good move is suboptimal per career progression. If you w/o a degree and x with a degree are up for the same job the company isn't going to wait four/five/six years for you to finish your degree. Fact is the other guy would be able to complete an MBA from scratch sooner. Waiting puts all kinds of pressure on women with want both a career and kids as well.
1. HR gatekeepers are not in charge. Ultimately HR does not make the call as to who needs a degree. Protocols and job requirements are developed by heads of departments and the CEO who tell HR what to do. Put another way HR amongst companies of any size is subservient to finance, IT, marketing and law and R&D and other departments when applicable.
2. IT is an odd area as IT has become a catchall term that covers everyone from PC-Helpdesk and phone support to cyber security, tech and business side coding to all manner of legit engineering to technically oriented and frankly sometimes not technically oriented management and more. The fact is the overwhelming majority of businesses now require degrees for 90-95% of these jobs because overtime not only because of specific acquired knowledge advantages but because people with degrees as a cadre have proved much more likely to flourish than non-degree holders. The same logic applies to many fields.........just because some people without degrees can do the job doesn't refine the search as well enough.
3. Waiting to earn a degree mid-career while often a good move is suboptimal per career progression. If you w/o a degree and x with a degree are up for the same job the company isn't going to wait four/five/six years for you to finish your degree. Fact is the other guy would be able to complete an MBA from scratch sooner. Waiting puts all kinds of pressure on women with want both a career and kids as well.
I don't think one should push diversity on companies.
if women want to pursue they will find a way.
Wall Street ... mostly male
military...mostly male
engineering...mostly male
I didn't need anyone to have a special program
I knew what I wanted and went for it.
At this point it's not about any diversity ideology, and simply a matter of getting the human bodies they need in the jobs. We have extreme labor shortages all over. They've tapped out the pool of men, so where else are they going to find bodies to do the work?
I would say immigration but we are more adamant than ever that we are going to let those people rot on the border rather than put them to work.
I say the same thing about female dominated industries, that they need to recruit more men. E.g. early childcare, veterinary, nursing, elementary teaching, etc...
Used to work for a defense contractor that manufactured a variety of energetic devices/components. Many had to be assembled or processed with the use of a microscope. It was tedious and exacting work that required patience. Women were preferred (and hired) for those jobs because they possessed more patience than the average man. I was sent to help that particular workcenter on occasion, usually when they were shorthanded. Always came out of there with a headache from using those microscopes.
At this point it's not about any diversity ideology, and simply a matter of getting the human bodies they need in the jobs. We have extreme labor shortages all over. They've tapped out the pool of men, so where else are they going to find bodies to do the work?
I would say immigration but we are more adamant than ever that we are going to let those people rot on the border rather than put them to work.
I think you mean "rot in hotels and in public school gymnasiums". Illegals are quickly processed and dispersed into poor neighborhoods around America. But what skills do they have? Can they even read the language they speak? How do you do a background check on them?
Quote:
I say the same thing about female dominated industries, that they need to recruit more men. E.g. early childcare, veterinary, nursing, elementary teaching, etc...
Yes, "they" need to recruit more men. But how? My wife works in Head Start, and those children certainly need strong male role models because they're generally not getting it at home. The problem is, if you set about recruiting men in a female dominated industry, entrenched interests will circle the wagons to keep the men out.
I think you mean "rot in hotels and in public school gymnasiums". Illegals are quickly processed and dispersed into poor neighborhoods around America. But what skills do they have? Can they even read the language they speak? How do you do a background check on them?
America was built by people who barely knew the language amd came in with low skills. We trained them and they worked jobs. They took English classes or did the best they could learning it on their own. I don't understand why we don't embrace this the way we used to. Massive human resources going to waste.
Quote:
Yes, "they" need to recruit more men. But how? My wife works in Head Start, and those children certainly need strong male role models because they're generally not getting it at home. The problem is, if you set about recruiting men in a female dominated industry, entrenched interests will circle the wagons to keep the men out.
Any way they can. They need them.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
