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I can tell you that there was a point in my life when I was very jealous of blue collar workers.
After 6 years of college and 2 more applying for jobs during the Reagan recession, I finally got an engineering job and was sent to a construction site to oversee the work.
The Foreman was younger than me and already owned his own home after 6 years collecting union wages. Meanwhile, the entire time he was making money, I was destitute and paying for college.
I was plenty jealous at the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnywhereElse
I think that in this case, and it applies to most people, we can be jealous of the "success" of a person, and not their "college education".
I was not jealous of the young Union Foreman's success. I was envious that he had an 8-year head start on me by skipping college and going straight to work after high school.
He graduated high school and walked straight into a job paying well over minimum wage and had 8 years to promote. Meanwhile, I was losing money rather than making money, during the period I was preparing for a career -- 6 years in college and 2 years waiting tables in a bad recession.
Odds are strong I out-earned him over my 35 year engineering career. I was only jealous at the time because he was already on his way at an age I was only just getting started.
I was certainly never jealous of his working conditions, or hard physical labor, or 6-hour round trip commutes, or his screaming and shoving boss, or being on call, or having to work long overtime hours, or being unemployed for long stretches of bad weather or construction delays or between contracts.
Recent media reports of government proposed student loan debt forgiveness in my opinion seem to have unleashed a lot of antipathy toward college educated people collectively.
When I have written persuasive letters in the past quoting professors and subject matter experts with higher education degrees, those with no college education would sometimes respond with a "What do they know?" attitude" or "I don't need a professor" to tell me what to think" remark.
Has there for many years been an underlying antipathy toward the college educated from the non-college educated that was aggravated by the recently announced debt forgiveness plan?
There is a difference between "college educated" and "attended college".
I was not jealous of the young Union Foreman's success. I was envious that he had an 8-year head start on me by skipping college and going straight to work after high school.
He graduated high school and walked straight into a job paying well over minimum wage and had 8 years to promote. Meanwhile, I was losing money rather than making money, during the period I was preparing for a career -- 6 years in college and 2 years waiting tables in a bad recession.
Odds are strong I out-earned him over my 35 year engineering career. I was only jealous at the time because he was already on his way at an age I was only just getting started.
I was certainly never jealous of his working conditions, or hard physical labor, or 6-hour round trip commutes, or his screaming and shoving boss, or being on call, or having to work long overtime hours, or being unemployed for long stretches of bad weather or construction delays or between contracts.
This is why my husband and I felt so strongly about paying for our kids' college educations. Entering adulthood buried in debt sucks. When our eldest graduated debt-free, she told us that she felt like she had won the lottery. She has quite a few friends facing six-figure student loans that even with well-paying jobs will take many, many years to pay off.
I recall the president of our psychology honor society coming back to talk to us after graduation and she was working in Sales because......she knew how to talk to people, to get them to buy. Where does this insistence come from that if you aren't working in your degree then it is useless as oppose to using your degree to work?
I don’t know. A lot of people don’t ever go to school with the intent of using their degree. If you major in comparative literature, for example, I don’t think you expect to go out into the real world and compare literature. On the other hand (at least in my university), you did have to become fluent in a second language and be able to review the literature in that language- so you may be able to do work translating documents. I would imagine that doesn’t count as actually using your degree.
I also met someone recently in the scenario you mentioned- majored in psychology and having a career he enjoyed within sales. As far as I know, all positions in my federal office require a bachelor’s degree in SOMETHING, but no specific degree type is required unless a license is needed to do the job. On the other hand, we have GS-12 to 14 employees who I think only have a bachelor’s degree. Most have been working for the agency a while and make six figures, so I wouldn’t say that the degree for them is worthless.
I don’t know. A lot of people don’t ever go to school with the intent of using their degree. If you major in comparative literature, for example, I don’t think you expect to go out into the real world and compare literature. On the other hand (at least in my university), you did have to become fluent in a second language and be able to review the literature in that language- so you may be able to do work translating documents. I would imagine that doesn’t count as actually using your degree.
I also met someone recently in the scenario you mentioned- majored in psychology and having a career he enjoyed within sales. As far as I know, all positions in my federal office require a bachelor’s degree in SOMETHING, but no specific degree type is required unless a license is needed to do the job. On the other hand, we have GS-12 to 14 employees who I think only have a bachelor’s degree. Most have been working for the agency a while and make six figures, so I wouldn’t say that the degree for them is worthless.
Well, it is how it works for USN officers, anyhow. An engineering degree is (was back then) required but you hardly ever worked in that degree. What they wanted was a mind trained to be able to rapidly understand the engineering world of the modern military.
That is how it can work for many a police force where they want you with a college degree but it can be in many different subjects. Many armchair QBs on the outside world would like those degrees to be in Criminal Justice but for what is taught in the academy, a CJ degree compares little. Further, one must understand that in the police world, one is dealing with communities of people who are not CJ types where some degree of diplomacy is needed, a certain degree of generalism.
My current job is managing data centers....which one of my degrees on my wall apply to that? Maybe my first one in telecommunications, before the Internet. On the other hand, it might be my geography degree, you know that liberal arts one, with emphasis on GIS and emergency management. Given the various different systems I have to deal with, know about, it just might be having been in the Navy between working on ships....and getting things organized to get jobs done.
Interestingly enough, one of the tricks I learned about organization, such as for an operation, I learned from freshman chemistry, in how they wrote their tests. They were 15 question tests of problems with multiple choice. When they wrote the test, they would work through the problem and put down the correct answer. Then, they would look at the problem, ask the question how someone could mess it up, see that way, work through it that way, and write down that answer. Rinse and repeat a few more times.
Something I have learned for planning out an affair. Look at the mission at hand, figure out what could mess it up, go out and solve that problem before it happens.
Finally, while not a degree.......in the Navy in the Cold War, we had Operation Specialists, people working in the Combat Information Centers, watching their radars, giving the directions to the fighters from those directing the battle. What could they do in civilian life? Well, the one thing they can't do is air traffic control because in the military, it is about bringing things together while in civilian, it is about keeping them apart and those two are seen as something never to be mixed.
So OS's in the civilian world often end up as managers of organizations.
One's schooling may get one to the front door but what one does afterwards is rather up to them.
..college educated people are less likely to smoke than non-college educated. That are more likely to wear their car seat belts. Just two quick examples of how a greater body of the non-college educated are either less informed or less motivated
These are cherry picked statistics, without any context. But I'm going to speculate on the why? of these cherry picked stats..
It has nothing to do with being "less informed", that is a smug assumption (which will lead to my broader point). Everyone in 2022 has been taught about the injury-prevention benefit of wearing a seatbelt.. that's not a realistic guess.
To the broader point of why non-college educated may engage in these two cherry-picked risks (smoking more & less seat belt usage). Smoking may be smugly viewed as a trashy, blur collar habit, so it's an elitism that compels college-educated/white collar to smoke tobacco less, not greater "information". Blacks also have higher smoking rates than Whites. Will you categorically condemn Blacks as more ignorant than Whites ??
Seat belt usage may have to do with being less neurotically fearful. Maybe blue collar workers who have dangerous jobs, feel less afraid driving down the street to a convenience store. Perhaps an underwater welder (who routinely faces danger) isn't as frightened of a fender-bender as a highly credentialed white collar worker, sitting in office all day. There are different assumptions we can all glean from cherry-picked stats. Mine don't essentially assume the ignorance of non college-educated. peace
These are cherry picked statistics, without any context. But I'm going to speculate on the why? of these cherry picked stats..
It has nothing to do with being "less informed", that is a smug assumption (which will lead to my broader point). Everyone in 2022 has been taught about the injury-prevention benefit of wearing a seatbelt.. that's not a realistic guess.
To the broader point of why non-college educated may engage in these two cherry-picked risks (smoking more & less seat belt usage). Smoking may be smugly viewed as a trashy, blur collar habit, so it's an elitism that compels college-educated/white collar to smoke tobacco less, not greater "information". Blacks also have higher smoking rates than Whites. Will you categorically condemn Blacks as more ignorant than Whites ??
Seat belt usage may have to do with being less neurotically fearful. Maybe blue collar workers who have dangerous jobs, feel less afraid driving down the street to a convenience store. Perhaps an underwater welder (who routinely faces danger) isn't as frightened of a fender-bender as a highly credentialed white collar worker, sitting in office all day. There are different assumptions we can all glean from cherry-picked stats. Mine don't essentially assume the ignorance of non college-educated. peace
Interesting. You made me think about why I don't smoke (or drink or use recreational drugs). It really just boils down to having two beloved members of my family die of lung disease (emphysema and cancer) when I was a teen in the early '80s. Also, I'm frugal, and smoking is an expensive habit. As for seatbelts, the early seventies saw a huge campaign in U.S. schools to promote their use. Once my family began wearing them, we never stopped. Regardless of a seat belt's role in reducing fatal injuries, wearing one really is just habit for me. For my husband, it was different. He lived in England when he was a child. His family owned an early '70s MG. Believe it or not, the car would not start if there was weight on the seat but the seat belt was not engaged. They still have the car, and it's still the case.
Sheena, hi.. if you're still in this thread, I'm curious to hear you elaborate on your thought. I stated why I don't think a kid getting a college degree (while taking off all summer, often living off Pell grants, then being supplementally supported by parents in to their 20s, etc) is a more laudable achievement than a young person who doesn't attend college and goes straight to supporting themselves, and participating in the workforce etc.
Your opinion, by what metric is a frat guy doing something "better" than a young person who is not pursuing a college degree, but is already plying a trade, serving in the military, etc?
The only explanation I've ever heard of why attending college is "better", is that it increases someone's earning potential. Which signals to me that the celebration of college is fundamentally about material greed. It's not really about intellectualism, which can and does exist without college credentials..
1. All college students are not sadistic, stupid "frat guys" and all frat guys are not sadistic and stupid, but many are. Most college students are not involved in Greek life.
2. Neither of my children took the summer off. They worked. As I did, and as my husband did. They wanted to work. The wanted more money.
3. College is better than trade school on a multiplicity of levels. Occasionally, right out of trade school, some trades people may earn somewhat more money than a recent college grad. That slight edge flattens with in a few years.
3. College opens numerous doors. One can major in, oh let me select a maligned major - sociology, and get a job with the county as a child protective service investigator. After a couple of years, they may feel over whelmed by their caseload, an decide that they are interested in law. Or mental health counseling. Or public policy. Or teaching.
A graduate of trade school is a "welder" or an "HVAC installer" or a "hairdresser". That's it. Do you really think that most 18 year olds know what they want to do for the rest of their lives? In my experience, they don't know what they want for the next THREE years. Cognitive development is not complete until age 25. The part of the brain that regulates impulse control, is not fully functional until that age. This is why military recruiters want to get them young. Students, particularly males, who did not really like high school may find the military to be action oriented and glamourous. They probably with not think about losing a limb, or PTSD.
When a college graduate decides to enter the military, they enter as an officer. I have a nephew in the Navy and a niece in the Air Force. They both went to college first.
4. Most important is learning. Knowledge. Meeting people from all over the country. Refining critical thinking. Reading books that most 18 or 19 year olds would never think of reading and establishing a firm knowledge base in a variety of subjects. I will not apologize for the fact that colleges are not trade schools. One can learn a profession in college, if that is what they want. If they decide at a later time that their chosen profession is really not for them, they still have a bachelors degree and the opportunity to attend graduate or professional school if they wish. My daughter has a BSN - Bachelor of Science in Nursing. If at some point she tires of nursing as I did, she still has a bachelors degree. Not so had she attended a two year nursing school at a vocational center.
My son was a Resident Advisor for two years. From this job, he learned people skills, how to be comfortable in a supervisory position when those you are supervising are peers. He learned leadership skills and accountability. He was responsible for evacuating a dormitory in case of fire, basic life support, listening skills and leadership skills. He was the first person who unhappy, depressed and homesick students spoke to, and he referred them to the counseling center when needed. He learned the importance of maintaining accurate records when he had interactions with such students.
He was given a very small stipend, and his room and board were free for those two years. His experience as an RA has caught the eye of several prospective employees. Being a resident advisor involves a great deal of responsibility and employers know that. Why? Because employers are mostly all college graduates.
5. The successful among us almost always expect a college degree from their children. It ius expected.
Strange as it may seem, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and formal education positively fortifies it.
~ Stephen Vizinczey
I've seen that play out time after time. However, I am not anti-education. I am an uneducated slob myself who managed to fake my way into a six-figure management position before retiring by learning on the job and taking on work above my pay grade, but I gave birth to an overachiever who was looking at colleges at the age of ten and who ended up with two Bachelors, a Masters, and a PhD.
It was just a generational and cultural difference. My mother did not graduate from high school, yet she was highly intelligent and an excellent writer.
Education can be a wonderful thing. It enhances some people and does nothing for others. LEARNING is what is important in any case.
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