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I didn't call THEM failures. I said homeschooling was a failure for them.
I read your posts. It looks, again, like you did not:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
By the time graduation rolls around, the failures have been weeded out and either dropped out or returned to the public schools or private schools.
That was you, calling those who were "weeded out" failures.
Everything else in your post is unsupported conjecture based on false assumptions used logically to come up with erroneous (if logical) conclusions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
The problem is, it's an experiment. You don't know it's going to work going in. You can only teach what you know to teach so you're limited to what the teacher knows.
B) Your image of modern homeschooling is so far from reality as to be absurd. No, one is not only restricted to what an individual parent knows. (Nor, honestly, should teaching be about the transmission of knowledge, like a pitcher to a glass. But that is a rant at you for another time, I suppose.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
I would expect that those for whom homeschooling didn't work would have quit long before graduation.
Doesn't it depend on what you mean by "didn't work?" The families doing it primarily for religious or political reasons are not going to be giving up on it. The religious side comprises at least 40% of the group, probably more, though the balance is shifting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
I'd expect those who match the demographic of homeschoolers in public school to do just as well. Did you not read where I wrote that the issue is we don't know if homeschooled kids do better than they would have in a public school. They have the same things going for them either way. IMO, they have more opportunity in a public school so they could do better there.
Isn't it so sad that the statisticsprove you are wrong.
The standardized test results for the 8th grade for the public schools, when broken down by demographics, does not show those students to be 4 grade levels ahead of their classmates. Too bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
I think tailoring an education teaches...
Necessity is the mother of invention. You develop the skills you need to succeed in your environment.
Then why do 25% of students drop out of school?
Why are the majority of those (and the majority of people in U.S. prisons) from the segment of the population who do not think like the majority of students and teachers do?
Our schools are failing far too many of our kids - and not even remotely just those who drop out. "You develop the skills you need" and damn the failures.
B) Your image of modern homeschooling is so far from reality as to be absurd. No, one is not only restricted to what an individual parent knows. (Nor, honestly, should teaching be about the transmission of knowledge, like a pitcher to a glass. But that is a rant at you for another time, I suppose.)
Doesn't it depend on what you mean by "didn't work?" The families doing it primarily for religious or political reasons are not going to be giving up on it. The religious side comprises at least 40% of the group, probably more, though the balance is shifting.
Isn't it so sad that the statisticsprove you are wrong.
The standardized test results for the 8th grade for the public schools, when broken down by demographics, does not show those students to be 4 grade levels ahead of their classmates. Too bad.
Then why do 25% of students drop out of school?
Why are the majority of those (and the majority of people in U.S. prisons) from the segment of the population who do not think like the majority of students and teachers do?
Our schools are failing far too many of our kids - and not even remotely just those who drop out. "You develop the skills you need" and damn the failures.
*sigh* And you're a teacher.
I have, certainly, read my own posts. I wrote them.
NOOOOO. I said homeschooling was a failure in the case of people who were weeded out. As in they failed at homeschooling. I never called them a failure. They are failures within the homeschooling system (as in data points). As in homeschooling failed. It did not work. What would you call it? A raving success?
As I said, I can't speak to the families who choose homeschooling for religious reasons. I also have no idea what the graduation rate is for homeschoolers. Public schools report their drop out rates, homeschoolers do not. My understanding is they aren't required to pass much information at all to the state. How many homeschool until the children are 16 and then just stop school alltogether? I don't know. Homeschoolers aren't required to report their drop out rates but public schools are. You're back to apples and oranges and trying to claim it means something. Tell me how many homeschoolers quit/drop out before graduation and then we'll talk.
You'll have to be more clear here. What statistics have proven me wrong? I haven't seen any yet.
We know the data for schools, we don't know the data for homeschoolers. We can reason that people for whom homeschooling does not work are more likely to quit homeschooling (which is what I see here. I'm told that's unusual. Can't see it though. It's human nature to, eventually, realize it hurts if you keep beating your head against a wall.). If the ones for whom homeschooling doesn't work, quit, then you have a self weeding system where only the successes are reported at the end. That makes the data kind of meaningless. Given the potential for that type of weeding, you'd expect very good scores from those who finish.
Traditional school educates everyone - Homescholing educates a hand selected group.
In traditional schooling, the parents are mostly uninvolved -- In homeschooling almost exclusively involved.
In traditional schooling, we keep trying until they graduate or drop out and report both sets of numbers as part of our report card -- homeschooling does the same but does not report their quit rate or their drop out rate.
Further - it's logical to think that people for whom homeschooling does not work will quit doing it. (It's just not human nature to keep beating your head against a wall) We keep working with students whether public schools work for them or not. We're the catch all. We're where kids go when everything else fails and we cannot just decide that school isn't working for Suzy and send her somewhere else. This I HUGE in the comparison.
As far as poeple who homeschool long term, first, what percentage of homeschoolers would that be and, second, what percentage of them participate in testing? What percentage of them go on to college? (I mean percentage that start homeschooling not percentage that graduate. That I believe is a very select group and would expect rates of going to college to be very high but, as I've said before, take the same group in public school and their rates will be high too.) We really need to know what the attrition rate is. What percentage of homeschoolers finish what they started? What percentage send their kids back to us?
Now, I have no doubt that graduates of homeschooling do well. I would expect them to. They are the hand selected success stories. The ones for whom the system worked and whose parents chose to have their test scores included in numbers reported.
The only way any of the data would mean anything would be if it said something in opposition to what is expected. It doesn't. It says what you'd expect for reasons that have nothing to do with homeschooling itself. Because there are good reasons to think homeschooled kids would do better (ranging from being hand picked to the option to quit if it doesn't work and the option to not even report test scores....) data that says they do better doesn't mean a whole lot. It just means we were right when we predicted they would do better for all the reasons I've listed over and over.
Your data broken down by "demographics" is only broken down by income. It doesn't account for involved parents or the fact that those for whom homeschooling doesn't work can just quit AND we don't even know the participation rate. Homeschoolers have the luxury of not taking the test in the first place. Yeah, I'd expect the kids of the parents who took it to do well because I'd expect that they have reasonable faith they will do well which is why I think they chose to have then take the test.
One split out we can't do (in addition to that pesky problem of you can just quit homeschooling if it doesn't work) is parental involvement. All I can tell you is there are marked differences in the two groups. It's reasonable to believe that homeschooling parents are involved. I can tell you that most public schooling parents are not.
You keep comparing apples and oranges and acting like you think you've proved something.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 08-20-2009 at 05:23 AM..
Wanted to add this in a separate post because the other was already long and it's a different topic.
I don't believe all schools are a failure. I think they actually serve a large portion of our population well. What they don't do is serve everyone well.
Take, for example, the requirement for Algebra II for graduation here (up for debate right now and I hope logic prevails). It's not reasonable to expect all students to complete Algebra II. There are people who just aren't math people.
The segment of the population I believe we serve worst is the bottom. We're forcing them onto a college bound track where they might not belong. We're putting them in mixed ability classes where, teachers have to make a choice of which level to teach to.
The top, seems to do well no matter what you do with them. They have something innate that results in success.
The next group I think we don't serve well is the group just below the top. The ones who aren't creative enough to learn on their own and bypass the system. The ones who, if challenged, will rise to the challenge. The ones for whom external factors set the bar who will aim for the bar wherever it's set. While G&T programs stop gifted kids and their parents from whining, they have the potential to actually raise these students level of performance and, perhaps, ultimate education level. Unfortunately, this group is ignored because they pass the state tests. There's no bang for your buck if you put engery into them like there is in putting it into the bottom of the class so guess where we teach?
The middle I'm not sure about. Should we be pushing higher level courses on them or teaching them life skills? Sometimes I think we need to bring back the vocational high school where you teach kids a trade they can earn a living with.
Hmmmm? Now that I think about it, maybe it's the middle we serve the worst. For the bottom, there are programs to help them but we still have them on the wrong program. Hard to say which is worst.
Teaching a classroom of children from a curriculum mandated by the state is work. Teaching your own children from a curriculum that you have researched, being willing to change the curriculum if necessary, finding socializing opportunities for your children in the absence of school, and being responsible for the educational success of your children is also work. If you can call your take-home work, work, even though you're doing it at home, then I can call my homeschooling work.
Saying that people homeschool to avoid getting a job is as insulting as saying that people become teachers to work short days and have summers off. Are there are a few misguided souls who go into homeschooling looking for a vacation? Sure... but they are in for a rude awakening!
We really need to know what the attrition rate is. What percentage of homeschoolers finish what they started? What percentage send their kids back to us?
The thing is, that not all homeschoolers PLAN to keep their kids home indefinitely. If a child went to Catholic school until 8th grade then went to a public high school, I assume you would not say "Catholic school failed yet again." It's an educational choice that is not set in stone. If a homeschooled child started high school unable to read well or write a coherent paragraph or do basic math, then I might say "homeschool failed that child." If the child is on or about on grade level, though, and they enter public school, then how could homeschooling have failed? It did what it was designed to do, which was bring the child to X grade level.
I have tried to stay clear of this discussion, because logical arguments seem to be lacking....
Most homeschoolers do so because it works for their family. They are looking for something other than a public school or private school education for their child. Those reasons vary for each and every family, but it guides the content taught to the children. Therefore, trying to say whether homeschooling works by using a standardized achievement test based on PUBLIC SCHOOL standards is useless.
I know in my own situation, I teach writing far different than public schools. We do copywork, narration and dictation until 5th grade, at that point we only do paragraph work. We don't move on to any compositions until those skills are solid. Meanwhile, I am teaching grammar and we are reading lots of GOOD literature to put excellent sentence structure into their heads - Animal Farm, Call of the Wild, Huckleberry Fin, The Phantom Tollboth (one of my personal favorites!).
In PA, you have to take a standardized writing test in 5th grade. We put my daughter back into school in 5th grade. We had to do lots of catching up at home because 5th graders in public school are expected to write 5 paragraph essays - persuasive, informative and descriptive, something she had not done at this point while homeschooling. She did fine because I taught her how to write a formulaic 5-paragraph essay, just like the school does.
Basically, in my opinion, I taught her a useless skill only to take a test. At home, I expect her writing NOT to be a 5-paragraph formula essay. This is why assuming that metrics used for public schools are any indication of homeschooling success. If homeschoolers were looking to recreate a public school education at home, why even bother? The vast majority of homeschoolers do so because they want something OTHER than a public school education for their children. Measuring achievement by public school standards is useless in my eyes.
Teaching a classroom of children from a curriculum mandated by the state is work. Teaching your own children from a curriculum that you have researched, being willing to change the curriculum if necessary, finding socializing opportunities for your children in the absence of school, and being responsible for the educational success of your children is also work. If you can call your take-home work, work, even though you're doing it at home, then I can call my homeschooling work.
Saying that people homeschool to avoid getting a job is as insulting as saying that people become teachers to work short days and have summers off. Are there are a few misguided souls who go into homeschooling looking for a vacation? Sure... but they are in for a rude awakening!
Sorry, but the shoe often fits. Some people like to control their own lives. This is the case with my friend. She doesn't want to have to report to work at a certain time, to do what she does to someone elses standard and she doesn't want her time at home cut into. She's not alone.
There is a huge difference between working a job and taking care of your own life. Even if homeschooling. 3 or 4 kids doens't compare to the 148 I have in my classes. BTW, the state doesn't mandate the curriculum. They set the standards. It's up to us to find curricula that works for our students and meets the standards.
As to researching standards, I can't even fathom doing that in isolation. I do it with a team of subject certified teachers and I find it tough. I woudln't know where to begin if I were working outside of my area of expertise. I know my limitations. I am not qualified, for example, to pick a history curriculum. I wouldn't know a good one from a bad one. I'd end up just taking someone else's word for it. Following someone else's lead who claimed to have success.
I have tried to stay clear of this discussion, because logical arguments seem to be lacking....
Most homeschoolers do so because it works for their family. They are looking for something other than a public school or private school education for their child. Those reasons vary for each and every family, but it guides the content taught to the children. Therefore, trying to say whether homeschooling works by using a standardized achievement test based on PUBLIC SCHOOL standards is useless.
I know in my own situation, I teach writing far different than public schools. We do copywork, narration and dictation until 5th grade, at that point we only do paragraph work. We don't move on to any compositions until those skills are solid. Meanwhile, I am teaching grammar and we are reading lots of GOOD literature to put excellent sentence structure into their heads - Animal Farm, Call of the Wild, Huckleberry Fin, The Phantom Tollboth (one of my personal favorites!).
In PA, you have to take a standardized writing test in 5th grade. We put my daughter back into school in 5th grade. We had to do lots of catching up at home because 5th graders in public school are expected to write 5 paragraph essays - persuasive, informative and descriptive, something she had not done at this point while homeschooling. She did fine because I taught her how to write a formulaic 5-paragraph essay, just like the school does.
Basically, in my opinion, I taught her a useless skill only to take a test. At home, I expect her writing NOT to be a 5-paragraph formula essay. This is why assuming that metrics used for public schools are any indication of homeschooling success. If homeschoolers were looking to recreate a public school education at home, why even bother? The vast majority of homeschoolers do so because they want something OTHER than a public school education for their children. Measuring achievement by public school standards is useless in my eyes.
Thank you. All I've been trying to say is it's homeschoolers for whom it works who stick with it. If what you're doing at home doesn't work, you'll either change it or quit it. So, in the end, you're looking at the hand picked success stories. IMO, that makes the data useless unless it stands in defiance of what you'd expect but it doesn't. It says, exactly, what you'd expect.
IMO, the writing tests are the weakest. They are the most subjective of the tests. There simply isn't a clear definition of what good writing is. Many of us know it when we see it but can't say why it's good.
I can write a proper sentence but I cannot correct an incorrect one. I know it's incorrect and I can write my own correct sentence conveying the same ideas but if you gave me a test where I had to correct someone elses sentence, I'd be sunk.
I also agree that homeschoolers aren't looking to recreate the system. My personal reasoning for not homeschooling centers around my not beleiving I'm qualified to make decisions that many homeschoolers seem to think they are qualified to make. I know what goes into curriculum selection and one of the things I rely on, heavily, is my subject matter expertise. I can't imagine considering myself qualified to select a curriculum for my kids that includes subjects outside of my area of expertise. I could see myself simply following someone else's lead. Taking their word for it they did their homework and the curriculum will deliver what they say it will but if I'm going to do that, nothing has changed from the public school really.
My preference is to work with the system. To take what it has to offer and add what I know needs to be added. So far, it's working for my kids. I can't see throwing the baby out with the bathwater. There are positive things that public schooling has to offer. When I add to it what I offer my kids, they're that much further a head.
I would say that most, if not all, people like to control their own lives. Is this a bad thing? :confused
Is that what this is all about? Homeschoolers having more control over their lives? That's one of the reasons I signed up! I don't want to park my kids in school/before school care/after school care so that I can go out and go after the almighty dollar. If I did want to do that, I would. While I don't homeschool to "avoid work," I choose not to work outside the home so that I can homeschool. (I actually do freelance writing part time, but that does not cut into my homeschooling time.)
I would say that most, if not all, people like to control their own lives. Is this a bad thing? :confused
Is that what this is all about? Homeschoolers having more control over their lives? That's one of the reasons I signed up! I don't want to park my kids in school/before school care/after school care so that I can go out and go after the almighty dollar. If I did want to do that, I would. While I don't homeschool to "avoid work," I choose not to work outside the home so that I can homeschool. (I actually do freelance writing part time, but that does not cut into my homeschooling time.)
Depends on whether that includes avoiding paid employment if you need it. My friend's husband would be a lot happier if she'd get a job. He didn't realize he signed up for her never working again when they had kids . He thought it was a temporary thing. Money is now an issue they fight over. So, this situation is creating stress for her family. Getting a job, however, will create stress for her as she wants to control every minute of her life. Then again, she gets stress either way, doesn't she. Stress from the arguments over money and her working with her defending her position claiming homeschooling is best for the one child she homeschools or stress from having to work for someone else.
Depends on how much control you insist on and whether your spouse is on board. Some want control 24 x 7. Some realize that sometimes they have to go to work andgive control to someone else. I'm not so into control that I need to control every minute. I don't feel a need to control every minute of my children's education. I don't find my sense of importance in control. It doesn't bother me to go to work where I'm working to someone elses standard. That's what they pay me for.
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I have, certainly, read my own posts. I wrote them. 
They are failures within the homeschooling system (as in data points). As in homeschooling failed. It did not work. What would you call it? A raving success?
