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Depends on whether that includes avoiding paid employment if you need it. My friend's husband would be a lot happier if she'd get a job. He didn't realize he signed up for her never working again when they had kids .
This is a marriage issue, not a homeschooling issue. Obviously, this family does not communicate clearly and do not have the same goals. I would guess there are many other "issues" other than homeschooling in this relationship. But again, using an isolated example to make a generalization makes no sense.
The fact that we have gone to a society that needs two incomes to support a certain "life-style" is another whole issue that I won't even begin to tackle.
When I read these posts, it makes me very glad that my husband and I share the same goals in raising our children. I have no desire to judge other people's choices.
As far as curriculum, I enjoy picking curriculum for my children. I have no doubt that I can research and find curriculum that suits my children. I can read information from "experts" in the field and make educated choices. Now that my children are older, they help in this process. There is so much to be learned - how to find reliable sources, how to evaluate those sources, and of course setting goals of what to accomplish in a year.
Unfortunately, public school, just by the nature of the beast, cannot individualize the curriculum in this way. Now when my children are older and these skills have become ingrained, then yes, content is content. It won't matter if I teach the child algebra or a public school does or a community college does. But for now, that isn't really my goal. I'm teaching my child to be a life-long learner, who doesn't wait to be fed the next piece of information, but seeks it out herself and has the skills to do so.
This is a marriage issue, not a homeschooling issue. Obviously, this family does not communicate clearly and do not have the same goals. I would guess there are many other "issues" other than homeschooling in this relationship. But again, using an isolated example to make a generalization makes no sense.
The fact that we have gone to a society that needs two incomes to support a certain "life-style" is another whole issue that I won't even begin to tackle.
When I read these posts, it makes me very glad that my husband and I share the same goals in raising our children. I have no desire to judge other people's choices.
As far as curriculum, I enjoy picking curriculum for my children. I have no doubt that I can research and find curriculum that suits my children. I can read information from "experts" in the field and make educated choices. Now that my children are older, they help in this process. There is so much to be learned - how to find reliable sources, how to evaluate those sources, and of course setting goals of what to accomplish in a year.
Unfortunately, public school, just by the nature of the beast, cannot individualize the curriculum in this way. Now when my children are older and these skills have become ingrained, then yes, content is content. It won't matter if I teach the child algebra or a public school does or a community college does. But for now, that isn't really my goal. I'm teaching my child to be a life-long learner, who doesn't wait to be fed the next piece of information, but seeks it out herself and has the skills to do so.
I agree with every single thing you've said, especially the bolded.
This is a marriage issue, not a homeschooling issue. Obviously, this family does not communicate clearly and do not have the same goals. I would guess there are many other "issues" other than homeschooling in this relationship. But again, using an isolated example to make a generalization makes no sense.
The fact that we have gone to a society that needs two incomes to support a certain "life-style" is another whole issue that I won't even begin to tackle.
When I read these posts, it makes me very glad that my husband and I share the same goals in raising our children. I have no desire to judge other people's choices.
As far as curriculum, I enjoy picking curriculum for my children. I have no doubt that I can research and find curriculum that suits my children. I can read information from "experts" in the field and make educated choices. Now that my children are older, they help in this process. There is so much to be learned - how to find reliable sources, how to evaluate those sources, and of course setting goals of what to accomplish in a year.
Unfortunately, public school, just by the nature of the beast, cannot individualize the curriculum in this way. Now when my children are older and these skills have become ingrained, then yes, content is content. It won't matter if I teach the child algebra or a public school does or a community college does. But for now, that isn't really my goal. I'm teaching my child to be a life-long learner, who doesn't wait to be fed the next piece of information, but seeks it out herself and has the skills to do so.
Personally, I don't want an individualized curriculum for my kids. I don't want a system that teaches them they're so special they need to be taught their way. I want them to develop the ability to learn what they need to even when the situation is not ideal for them. Education is about more than just cramming in the most stuff into a kids brain. About more than getting the most taught. This is training for the rest of their life where they will be expected to adapt to the situation not the situation to them.
Now, before my two nay sayers jump in and twist this , that does not mean I want a system that is a constant struggle for them. I just don't want it to be all about them. I think it's good to figure out how to teach yourself when you face a teacher who you struggle with. I had some in college I couldn't even understand .
I think very different from the norm. Apparently, less than 5% of the population thinks like I do. I learn differently than the norm too. That's something I've had to learn to deal with. Not only have I but I've excelled because I did. If I'd been taught my way, I wouldn't have done that. If they'd individualized my education to me, they would have handicapped me. I, probably, would have made it to college faster but I would not have done as well. I did as well as I did BECAUSE I know how to get what I need.
My older daugther is me all over again (which explains the heat butting she and I can do ) and will have to learn how to learn in an environment that teaches using methods we don't learn well with but when she does, she'll sail above the rest. She hates it when she asks for my help and I tell her she's smart enough to figure it out or I give her an investigation to do so she can discover it on her own. My younger daughter is that kid for whom everything comes easily. She NEEDS to be in an enviroment that forces her to adapt. I wouldn't dream of giving either of my kids an individualized education. What would there be to gain that would offset them learning how to adapt and find what they need on their own?
People give many reasons for homeschooling. Maintaining religious control is number 1, which I find disturbing. Why would religion have anything to do with deciding what's best when it comes to educating your child? Personally, I like separation of religion and state. Teaching algebra or chemistry has nothing to do with religion. The second reason given is that the parent thinks they're better qualified to teach than the teachers. They're convinced they can do it better. Which I might believe if they'd actually taught before . It amazes me when people who have never done a job convince themselves they can do it better.
I have, certainly, read my own posts. I wrote them.
NOOOOO. I said homeschooling was a failure in the case of people who were weeded out. As in they failed at homeschooling. I never called them a failure. They are failures within the homeschooling system (as in data points). As in homeschooling failed. It did not work. What would you call it? A raving success?
*shrugs* You wrote 'em, but you seem to have a hard time admitting it.
I provided the quote. You said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler By the time graduation rolls around, the failures have been weeded out and either dropped out or returned to the public schools or private schools.
Not me. You. You want to pretend you didn't? Fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
I also have no idea what the graduation rate is for homeschoolers. Public schools report their drop out rates, homeschoolers do not. My understanding is they aren't required to pass much information at all to the state. How many homeschool until the children are 16 and then just stop school alltogether? I don't know. Homeschoolers aren't required to report their drop out rates but public schools are. You're back to apples and oranges and trying to claim it means something. Tell me how many homeschoolers quit/drop out before graduation and then we'll talk.
Given how often you hit your own head, I can see why you are having such a hard time understanding.
From the latter report: Silent Epidemic states the top five reason students drop out are as follows: 47% say classes are not interesting 43% say they missed too many classes and could not catch up 42% say that they spent too much time with people who were not interested in school 38% had too much freedom and not enough rules in their lives 35% say they were failing in school.
These students, most had a GPA of C or better who chose to leave school in their junior and senior years.
As you would put it, logic says that homeschooling would have been better for them.
However, let's use stats from the state you are planning on moving to - Pennsylvania:
In 2000-2001, there were 1836 sixteen year olds homeschooling in PA. By the end of the 2002-2003 school year, 73% of them had received a diploma at or before age 18 from either a state-recognized organization or one of the "umbrella" schools such as Clonlara. This does not include Commonwealth Secondary School Diplomas (which include GEDs), Superintendant-issued Certificates of Completion, or parent-issued "diplomas." Nor does it include the Home School Verifications issued by Pennsylvania Higher Ed (PHEAA) to get financial aid for college.
PA does not break out GEDs for homeschoolers vs. for others, however in 2003, they had 216 students under the age of 18 take and pass a GED test. (They don't get the diploma until they are 18, regardless, which is dumb.) The CSSD is also issued to those without a diploma who have completed two years of college - but the statistics on those is similarly difficult to come by. HSVs are issued to those without any organized credential - parent-issued diplomas/certifications and those simply going to college without such, out of homeschooling. PHEAA is looking to see if they have that info.
It looks like a graduation rate of between 82 and 87% of homeschoolers in PA. I'll post the PHEAA numbers if they find them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
You'll have to be more clear here. What statistics have proven me wrong? I haven't seen any yet.
There are none so blind as those who will not see. Look up the Iowa test stats for public schools. Compare them with homeschoolers. Use demographicly equivalent groups. Or use ANY other national standardized test - compare the homeschool group to the like-demographic public OR private school groups.
When you find a group in the 8th grade averaging 4 grades above the national norm, do please let me know. I won't be holding my breath. Or compare it for 10th or 12th graders. Whichever you wish.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
Traditional school educates everyone - Homescholing educates a hand selected group.
In traditional schooling, the parents are mostly uninvolved -- In homeschooling almost exclusively involved.
In traditional schooling, we keep trying until they graduate or drop out and report both sets of numbers as part of our report card -- homeschooling does the same but does not report their quit rate or their drop out rate.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it does. "Traditional" schools are a modern invention.
The public schools educate something far below everyone, as your own later post points out. 27% drop out rate suggests that somebody is not having their needs met, wouldn't you say?
Further, I've long since posted the numbers for homeschoolers on an annual basis and shown that the cohorts are not dwindling over their progression in age/time. So, keep making up stories about the "quitters" - but the folks who would have the numbers, before age 16, of former homeschoolers who enroll in public schools would be... the publc schools! So, look to them for that figure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
(It's just not human nature to keep beating your head against a wall)
And yet, here I am.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
We keep working with students whether public schools work for them or not. We're the catch all. We're where kids go when everything else fails and we cannot just decide that school isn't working for Suzy and send her somewhere else.
What drugs are you on?
The public system does exactly that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
This I HUGE in the comparison.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
Homeschoolers have the luxury of not taking the test in the first place.
Depends on the program. Had you bothered to read the link, you would have seen that the Iowa was a required test for all students in that homeschool umbrella.
Oh, right - you keep imagining these moms who don't want to work sitting at home teaching only what they know...
It's easy to knock statistics when you neither read the background of the report nor understand what the research means.
"Oh, those numbers are meaningless because the folks who took the test and reported results were only those who knew they would do well."
B.S.
REQUIRED testing, as surely as any public school. (And there are plenty of public schools that control who takes their tests, to influence the school's apparent results.)
Academic Leadership State Regulation of Homeschooling and Homeschoolers̢۪ SAT Scores (http://www.academicleadership.org/emprical_research/State_Regulation_of_Homeschooling_and_Homeschooler s_SAT_Scores.shtml - broken link)
This is the best overview I have seen of the research comparing homeschoolers and those in other types of programs. It includes the following quote from one of the researchers whose data it integrates:
Quote:
“In other words, the design of most research to date does not allow for the conclusion that homeschooling necessarily causes higher academic achievement than does public (or private) institutional schooling. On the other hand, research designs and findings to date do not refute the hypothesis that homeschooling causes more positive effects than does institutional public (or private) schooling”
(from page 11, Ray, B. D. (2005). A homeschool research story. In Bruce S. Cooper (Ed.), Home schooling in full view: A reader, p. 1-19. Greenwich, CT: Information Age Publishing.)
I think at this point, I will stop banging my head on the wall and let this paper speak for itself. (Not that I expect some folks to read it.)
Last edited by jps-teacher; 08-20-2009 at 12:35 PM..
Academic Leadership State Regulation of Homeschooling and Homeschoolers̢۪ SAT Scores (http://www.academicleadership.org/emprical_research/State_Regulation_of_Homeschooling_and_Homeschooler s_SAT_Scores.shtml - broken link)
This is the best overview I have seen of the research comparing homeschoolers and those in other types of programs. It includes the following quote from one of the researchers whose data it integrates:
(from page 11, Ray, B. D. (2005). A homeschool research story. In Bruce S. Cooper (Ed.), Home schooling in full view: A reader, p. 1-19. Greenwich, CT: Information Age Publishing.)
I think at this point, I will stop banging my head on the wall and let this paper speak for itself. (Not that I expect some folks to read it.)
Thanks for, finally, admitting that the research proves nothing . It took long enough.
I don't need to read this to know that research that shows what you'd expect it would show for all the reasons I've repeated over and over can't be used to say homeschooling is better (or worse) than traditional schooling. I've been saying that for several pages of posts. When you see what you'd expect for other reasons, the data speaks to nothing except, most likely, those reasons. You can't use it to draw other conclusions.
It amazes me when people who have never done a job convince themselves they can do it better.
What job? Teaching one's own children? I have been doing that since birth. (Their births, not mine. )Teaching a group of 36 kids with only 30 chairs in the classroom? No thanks; I have no desire to do that job, and I'm sure I'd be terrible at it! Crowd management and difficult administration are so not my things!
What job? Teaching one's own children? I have been doing that since birth. (Their births, not mine. )Teaching a group of 36 kids with only 30 chairs in the classroom? No thanks; I have no desire to do that job, and I'm sure I'd be terrible at it! Crowd management and difficult administration are so not my things!
I'm referring to teaching sujects traditionally taught in schools. Without the right background, it would be difficult to tell if you'd hit all the material you're supposed to.
I'm referring to teaching sujects traditionally taught in schools. Without the right background, it would be difficult to tell if you'd hit all the material you're supposed to.
"Supposed to" is a confusing term... do you mean that it would be difficult to tell if you'd hit all the material that they are hitting in public school?
Let me ask you: How much of what you learned in public school do you remember today?
If you answered "all of it," or "almost all of it," then I have a hard time understanding why you would think that you could not teach the same to your kids. If the public school system prepared you so well for life, then why can't you pass that on?
If you answered "a little of it," like the vast majority of us, then I have a hard time understanding why you think it's all so important to learn all of the minutae in order and in the same depth and breadth (which is admittedly quite lacking in most subjects) as the public schooled kids. Do you need all of the information that you memorized and regurgitated on a daily, or even a yearly, basis? Of course not. If my kids don't memorize a list of dates in the sixth grade that the kid next door memorized... so what? They know how to find the information if they want or need it. They could ask me, but chances are that I would not know offhand... I only memorized those types of things for the test, not for a lifetime.
I think very different from the norm. Apparently, less than 5% of the population thinks like I do. I learn differently than the norm too. That's something I've had to learn to deal with. Not only have I but I've excelled because I did. If I'd been taught my way, I wouldn't have done that. If they'd individualized my education to me, they would have handicapped me. I, probably, would have made it to college faster but I would not have done as well. I did as well as I did BECAUSE I know how to get what I need.
This is the crux of your argument on the topic of homeschoolers and public schooling.
You have repeatedly (and accurately) insisted we don't know how the homeschoolers (the majority who did not suffer in public school) would have done in public school.
So, too, with you.
YOU CANNOT KNOW how you would have done had you been taught in ways that were sympatico with your learning style. You can guess - you can even insist. But you cannot know.
In a prior post, you insisted that "necessity is the mother of invention" and that people develop the skills they need to survive.
It's not true. It is demonstrably not true - witness the drop out rate.
How can I get you to see this? It's very important for your future students that you get past this.
Okay, let's try this:
I presume you are familiar with the sink or swim approach to teaching swimming. Some kids figure out how to swim. Some figure out how to reach land or dock or raft, but don't actually figure out how to swim. Some would drown.
Not everybody has your raw intelligence. Not everybody has your resilience.
Most of the kids who would sink in the sink or swim exercise can learn to swim. Many of them can learn to swim very well. Some may be superb runners, but never swimmers no matter how many times they get thrown in - all they will get is water-logged and discouraged.
Education is no different.
Some kids are going to make it through no matter how antagonistic the system is.
This is not a reason to assume that all students can, or that those who do not just haven't tried hard enough!
Not only that, but some of the kids who manage to swim in the sink or swim exercise will never like swimming as a result of being tossed in, but would have had they been taught how to swim, first.
One way they survived. The other way, they would have thrived.
*******
The other thing is that you assume that if students are taught in ways compatible with their learning styles there will be a lack of struggle or opportunities to deal with different modes.
This is incredibly far from the truth. The world is so filled with linear aspects that there is and will be ample opportunity to learn to deal with it - as a part of the overall learning process rather than just tossed in, willy-nilly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
My younger daughter is that kid for whom everything comes easily. She NEEDS to be in an enviroment that forces her to adapt. I wouldn't dream of giving either of my kids an individualized education. What would there be to gain that would offset them learning how to adapt and find what they need on their own?
If everything comes to her easily, then she is not in an environment that is forcing her to adapt, is she? She may well be in the environment that fits her learning style. (The deepest irony of your position - 70 - 75% of the students are inan environment designed by and for people who think like they do!)
Maybe it is time to send her to a country in which they don't teach in English.
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, that does not mean I want a system that is a constant struggle for them. I just don't want it to be all about them. I think it's good to figure out how to teach yourself when you face a teacher who you struggle with. I had some in college I couldn't even understand 
I have, certainly, read my own posts. I wrote them. 
)Teaching a group of 36 kids with only 30 chairs in the classroom? No thanks; I have no desire to do that job, and I'm sure I'd be terrible at it! Crowd management and difficult administration are so not my things!
