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To JPS: I do understand why a student would want to get to college sooner, it's just that I think that a decent public school does offer a strong foundation for college. There's no need to rush it. The difference is that one doesn't rush through high school to chop years off of college; one does high school AND four years of college. In the end it's more years of higher education, not less.
The indoctrination accusations often revolve more around the idea that publis schools try to mold students into thinking only one way, or to not being able to actively think for themselves. So yes, I suppose it is indoctrination in the sense that schools (and American society) wants graduates to be able to think for themselves and to be active citizens, but it's not indoctrination in the sense that they want all graduates to sit back, not think about things, and follow the government blindly. (and for what it's worth, the views of public education in the early 20th century were also quite different from what they were earlier in the 19th century. Jefferson, for one, certainly believed in students being able to think for themselves. It was that very need to be able to think independently that was valued for the success of American democracy, not the force-feeding of values. So yes, indoctrination in the sense of independent thought; no to the indoctrination of a compliant, unquestioning drone.)
How often do higher-level high school classes have daily work that has to be turned in? Then again, maybe my personal educational experiences have been really unusual.
Try talking to people who have pulled their kids out of school to homeschool, and you will see the error in your thinking. In general, the parents who pull their kids out do so because they were having problems in school. This does not, of course, necessarily apply to those whose parents chose homeschooling in lieu of sending their kids to school.
I don't have time to look right now, but I do wonder if there are stats on how many hs'd kids start off being homeschooled, vs. those that are pulled out of school for whatever reason. My guess is that those who started off in school tend to do better with homeschooling. Those who start off being homeschooled, it could go either way... probably the majority would do okay in school. I'm in the "homeschooling was our first choice" camp, so I don't have firsthand experience either way. Many of my friends pulled their kids out of schools for varying reasons, and those kids, undoubtedly, are doing 100% better being homeschooled.
Here you have to define "do as well".
When my children were in public school they were "A" students. But of course, school experience includes more than just grades (NCLB notwithstanding). In our case, it included my son having hit a ceiling in what maths he was allowed to learn; it included my daughter being sexually and physically harrassed; it included refusal of services by the school personnel despite my daughter's IEP; it included both kids coming home reporting on the fight du jour and whose house was visited by the police/CPS/irate people with guns the previous night. It included, for that matter, the fact that only limited time was available (once you subtract the classroom and commute time, and homework time) to take advantage of other opportunities like visiting our state capital while the Legislature was in session, attending musical and theatrical performances, or taking classes in everything from wetland conservation to the theory of myth. We could do one or two of those things-- but we couldn't do nearly as many, as often, or for as long.
So academically...yeah. My children were successful at their local school, as measured by grades and FCAT scores. And they're successful at home. But it is in the interstices that the differences between school and homeschool lay-- and there are many.
Yes, these cases of textbook manipulations, etc., are of concern, and people need to be on their toes about stuff like this, but textbooks are not the only source of education in a classroom. I acknowledge that no person or no textbook can be free of any biasm but that goes for homeschoolers, too.
I suppose there is some "indoctrination" in modern classrooms trying to send the message to kids that people of all races, ethnicities, and genders are equal and that discrimination and predjudice is bad. That doesn't bother me.
But the argument that schools are trying to make modern kids into robots who toe the line and don't question authority (the type of indoctrination accusation I was thinking about) just doesn't convince me.
I agree, though, that there are some homeschooling families out there who seem to have made it their mission in life to demonize the public schools. In their case it's not that the schools aren't meeting their individual children's needs, but that they believe all public schools are all bad (and teach their children the same viewpoint). On the other hand, there are those who believe all homeschooling to be bad, too, so it certainly goes both ways.
Well, honestly, I'm more than happy to demonize my kids' former school, and most of my school district. However, given that school's mediocre ranking even in a substandard district in a state which is routinely in the bottom five in the nation, I figure it's warranted.
Were we living in, say, Maryland (ranked with the best public schools in the nation in 2008, the most recent data I could find), I'd probably be far less critical.
To JPS: I do understand why a student would want to get to college sooner, it's just that I think that a decent public school does offer a strong foundation for college. There's no need to rush it. The difference is that one doesn't rush through high school to chop years off of college; one does high school AND four years of college. In the end it's more years of higher education, not less.
Your experience of the upper years of high school is... while not unheard of, not representative of the norm.
A "decent" public school may well offer a strong foundation for college, but according to the folks who run the ACT, fewer than 70% of our college-bound students are academically prepared for college. And given how many of our colleges are running remedial English and math courses, it's hard to say they are wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist
The indoctrination accusations often revolve more around the idea that publis schools try to mold students into thinking only one way, or to not being able to actively think for themselves.
Jefferson, for one, certainly believed in students being able to think for themselves. It was that very need to be able to think independently that was valued for the success of American democracy, not the force-feeding of values. So yes, indoctrination in the sense of independent thought; no to the indoctrination of a compliant, unquestioning drone.)
We don't teach independent thought in our schools. We really don't.
For the most part, we don't teach thinking at all, nor even encourage it. As one of my fellow instructors said to me once, complaining about my classes, "The day the students learn to think for themselves, we are all in a lot of trouble!"
Our schools are sufficiently stultifying for the masses that their interest in the society we purport to be preparing them for is next to nil.
That works even better than active indoctrination to preserve the status quo. Jefferson would be horrified by our schools.
The thing is, that not all homeschoolers PLAN to keep their kids home indefinitely. If a child went to Catholic school until 8th grade then went to a public high school, I assume you would not say "Catholic school failed yet again." It's an educational choice that is not set in stone. If a homeschooled child started high school unable to read well or write a coherent paragraph or do basic math, then I might say "homeschool failed that child." If the child is on or about on grade level, though, and they enter public school, then how could homeschooling have failed? It did what it was designed to do, which was bring the child to X grade level.
In this area a number of families start homeschooling in middle school, simply because the middle schools are generally perceived to be a cross between "Survivor", "Heathers", and "Lord of the Flies". While that description may be a bit extreme, I will say they are not, in general, Florida's most shining educational jewel.
Many of those children return to public school, particularly if they're accepted into a magnet program (like the High School for the Arts or the IB Program). It would be a mistake to call those "homeschool failure" since the goal never was to continue through graduation.
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler I think very different from the norm. Apparently, less than 5% of the population thinks like I do. I learn differently than the norm too. That's something I've had to learn to deal with. Not only have I but I've excelled because I did. If I'd been taught my way, I wouldn't have done that. If they'd individualized my education to me, they would have handicapped me. I, probably, would have made it to college faster but I would not have done as well. I did as well as I did BECAUSE I know how to get what I need.
With all due respect, you've confided in these threads that you are overwhelmed in your second career, that you are not making enough to live on even with your husband's income added in, and that you will have to return to a profession you don't love to afford the life you've created.
This doesn't fit my definition of "excelled" or "know how to get what I need". Though as always, mileage probably varies.
Further, absent a window into some parallel universe, you've no idea how you might have done had you been homeschooled, simply because...you weren't. You're "probably"s are merely conjecture, based on personal bias.
With all due respect, you've confided in these threads that you are overwhelmed in your second career, that you are not making enough to live on even with your husband's income added in, and that you will have to return to a profession you don't love to afford the life you've created.
This doesn't fit my definition of "excelled" or "know how to get what I need". Though as always, mileage probably varies.
Further, absent a window into some parallel universe, you've no idea how you might have done had you been homeschooled, simply because...you weren't. You're "probably"s are merely conjecture, based on personal bias.
I've excelled at everything I've done. Ask any of my former professors or supervisors.
The reference to getting what I need is getting what I need to excel at the job I have to do beit education or engineering. It doesn't matter where you put me. I'll do fine.
Yes, financially, I'm stuggling with the career change into teaching which makes teaching difficult in that I can't settle in when I know I'm leaving. If I knew I could settle in for the long haul, I wouldn't have any issues. I did not anticipate that the only job openings would be in low paying charter schools. They've been crying about a shortage of chemistry/math teacher for years. I know 5 chemical engineers who switched into teaching (a common move for chemical engineers - 70% of us have second careers outside of chemical engineering. I think we just like change.) and we're all in charter or private schools. Unfortunately, there is no demand for what we bring to the table and it is, very much, a buyers market.
I trust I will do, at least, as well as I did before in engineering and that was pretty good. I've never had a negative performance review. Over the years, I had numerous unsolicited job offers from clients and vendors. I have a pretty good track record. I've even been told that I did remarkably well for my first year in teaching.
The fact I haven't found something I'd love to do for the rest of my life, that I can afford to do, doesn't mean I'm not a success. I'll go back into engineering and probably teach nights at a college somewhere. I will both earn an income I can support my family on and teach. Just not high school. Which is fine as it turns out there is no demand for what I teach on that level. Engineering on a college level may be a different story. I had an offer last January to teach an engineering class at a local university but, unfortunately, that job offer came the day of my daughter's accident and they wanted me to start in 5 days which I couldn't do with a child in the hospital. Sometimes, timing just stinks. Had I gotten my ed degree 6 years ago, I'd be gainfully employed as a teacher today instead of going broke teaching in a charter school.
It's probably time to send my resume south. The engineering market is dry here and without a general science certificate, there's little hope of finding a teaching position in a district. I'll keep trying until I pack the car up and move south. I'm thinking pharmacheuticals or petrolium this time around. Either something that gives me a strong sense of serving community or really challenges my engineering abilities. I wouldn't mind automotive paint again. There there's the minimizing waste to minimize environemental impact aspect that's kind of cool. I used to keep a running tab of how many pounds of VOC's were not released due to my efforts when I was in automotive paint. Too bad they scrapped my best project due to lack of funds.
Somewhere out there, there's someone who wants an environmentally conscious chemical engineer who graduated at the top of her class and has a pretty good track record. I'm smart, I love learning, I love challenges and I haven't met a job I couldn't master yet. Of course, 5 years down the road I'm looking for something else because I'm no longer feeling challenged.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 08-23-2009 at 10:03 AM..
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