Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
It's normal, because Europe is so small, that this "overlapping" is to be expected.
And I've already said that "Germany" came as the result of unification of few different ( and probably unrelated) tribes that resided in the area.
So yes, Germans vary a great deal ( as it should be in this case,) but that doesn't mean that there is no "true German."
As Nueling has pointed out before by posting this excellent link:
There is no such thing as a 'real anybody European!', anybody that thinks otherwise are just fooling themselves. It ain't 'rocket science' Europeans have been 'mixing' for thousands of years!
I think it is not so much a matter of "racial purity" but of cultural identity, ideas of "racial purity" or supremacy have been destructive in the past however cultural identity actually exists, a black haired, black eyed Bavarian is still German. The immigrants of the past have adapted to European societies and did not live on their costs in absence of welfare systems, the present immigrants for the most part do not and dry out our social systems to a significant degree.
Is there a pure or real African or American or a pure or real Japanese or Chinese?
This reminded me of a conversation that I had long time ago with a friend;
Him ( trying to explain to me the biblical concepts) "...So Abraham took his people and moved with them to Egypt."
Me: "You mean Jews? So Abraham was a Jew then?"
Him: "No, not really. Because at that time such people as "Jews" didn't even exist . They appeared only after he had two sons, then one of them had another son, who actually became the ancestor of the Israelities. So you can talk about "Jews" really only from that point on."
Me: "So Abraham was a not a Jew then?"
Him:
Me; "Yes or no?"
Him: "Damn, don't you see that there can be no single "yes or no" to this question. On one hand, was he a Jew if he had a grandson whose name was Israel"? Yes.
On another hand, his other son became the ancestor of Arabs - so could he REALLY be just a "Jew?"
So as I've said, even though I am new to all this DNA/Haplogroups thing, that's what it looks like more to me - a family tree, with certain genes shared here and there. ( I don't understand this whole concept of "migration" from continent to continent. I mean how did people move even from one far away country to another, before the trains and airplanes were invented?
You can think of "boats" of course, but how much evidence do we have of that, other than Viking travels ( and even that came in much later time.) I mean people are not some herd animals, to travel such distances en mass, particularly with children on hands.
And in the light of all this, my guess would be that some "pure African" might share some common ancestor with a Scandinavian far far back in the beginning of the "family tree."
But does it mean that "there is no difference" and "since we all came as the direct result of "earlier migration," we might as well mix it all up yet again?
The answer is "no."
My understanding is that all these differences came as the result of some long selective process, and they are very distinct.
As for "purity" of any given nation - as I've said, today's nations came as the result of the mixture of very specific groups ( tribes) that resided earlier in the area ( and in some rare cases the admixture came as the result of wars/migration.)
Europeans seem to have plenty of different tribes and combinations; Africans seem to have plenty as well.
I am not sure about Asia ( the Orient) though - their population seems to be more monogamous, particularly when it comes to Korea/Japan. Not sure about China.
This reminded me of a conversation that I had long time ago with a friend;
Him ( trying to explain to me the biblical concepts) "...So Abraham took his people and moved with them to Egypt."
Me: "You mean Jews? So Abraham was a Jew then?"
Him: "No, not really. Because at that time such people as "Jews" didn't even exist . They appeared only after he had two sons, then one of them had another son, who actually became the ancestor of the Israelities. So you can talk about "Jews" really only from that point on."
Me: "So Abraham was a not a Jew then?"
Him:
Me; "Yes or no?"
Him: "Damn, don't you see that there can be no single "yes or no" to this question. On one hand, was he a Jew if he had a grandson whose name was Israel"? Yes. On another hand, his other son became the ancestor of Arabs - so could he be REALLY just a "Jew?"
So as I've said, even though I am new to all this DNA/Haplogroups thing, that's what it looks like more to me - a family tree, with certain genes shared here and there. ( I don't understand this whole concept of "migration" from continent to continent. I mean how did people move even from one far away country to another, before the trains and airplanes were invented? You can think of "boats" of course, but how much evidence do we have of that, other than Viking travels ( and even that came in much later time.) I mean people are not some herd animals, to travel such distances en mass, particularly with children on hands.
And in the light of all this, my guess would be that some "pure African" might share some common ancestor with a Scandinavian far far back in the beginning of the "family tree."
But does it mean that "there is no difference" and "since we all came as the direct result of "earlier migration" we might as well mix it all up yet again? The answer is "no."
My understanding is that all these differences came as the result of some long selective process, and they are very distinct.
As for "purity" of any given nation - as I've said, today's nations came as the result of the mixture of very specific groups ( tribes) that resided earlier in the area ( and in some rare cases the admixture came as the result of wars/migration.) Europeans seem to have plenty of different tribes and combinations; Africans seem to have plenty as well.
I am not sure about Asia ( the Orient) though - their population seem to be more monogamous, particularly when it comes to Korea/Japan. Not sure about China.
This rambling post on the topic reflects your lack of knowledge in regards to race, ethnicity, genetics, phenotypes, evolution, and genetics. But don't fret there are others. There are a myriad of posts on this forum that contain correct information that explain the genetic composition of European populations. Do a little basic research and google European Hunter Gatherers, Neolithic Farmers and Bronze age Invaders to start with and build on that. Using the bible to understand genetics is just gullible.
This rambling post on the topic reflects your lack of knowledge in regards to race, ethnicity, genetics, phenotypes, evolution, and genetics. But don't fret there are others. There are a myriad of posts on this forum that contain correct information that explain the genetic composition of European populations. Do a little basic research and google European Hunter Gatherers, Neolithic Farmers and Bronze age Invaders to start with and build on that. Using the bible to understand genetics is just gullible.
I can't use the bible, really, because I can't explain the concept how the nation can be "made" out of one man ( if the bible is talking about a "man" of course.)
But yes, I do see a "family tree" when I look at haplogroups, instead of all this "migration" mumbo-jumbo.
( just an example of a family tree, when you scroll down to the picture.)
P.S. Oh, and instead of sending someone to "read this and read that," you can actually provide the synopsis of your own findings on a subject, ( backed by referrals, if possible.)
I disagree. Close to the borders (Germany borders 10 countries or so) for instance Germans are genetically much closer to their neighboring countries than to fellow Germans 300 or 600 or 900 km away. People in Meppen are much more Dutch than Bavarian, as an example.
There simply is no real German in genetic terms.
The unifying thing is basically the ugly German language.
Depends where.. the alps is a huge grographical boundary. Also Language is.. people in South West GErmany are much more different from their French neighbours on the other side, than the NW Germans are to the Dutch, and unequivocally the German language in NW is much closer to Dutch than the dialect of German spoken in SW is to French.
I can't use the bible, really, because I can't explain the concept how the nation can be "made" out of one man ( if the bible is talking about a "man" of course.)
But yes, I do see a "family tree" when I look at haplogroups, instead of all this "migration" mumbo-jumbo.
( just an example of a family tree, when you scroll down to the picture.)
P.S. Oh, and instead of sending someone to "read this and read that," you can actually provide the synopsis of your own findings on a subject, ( backed by referrals, if possible.)
1. Yes you are consistent with your confirmation bias(specifically your understanding of Haplogroups is very influenced by your beliefs).
Erasure are you saying that ancient people didn’t migrate? I find that very surprising especially since you bring up the Bible so much, what exactly do you think the Jews were doing in the books of genesis and exodus? Sure many scholars doubt the accuracy of those books, but the concept still stands. Famine, plague and war/violence are strong pressures that can cause a huge population to take off to different lands in search of a better life, just like modern refugees do today. Also a lot of times migrations were very slow and unintentional. A couple settles down and have a bunch of kids, and to not compete for resources the kids disperse and set up their own families, or sometimes their will be a fued/family drama and some people will get excommunicated etc.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
