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It is very sad; not just sad - tragic. ( That's what I think every time when I see those haunted places.)
Everything that took place in the 90ies was tragic for Russia.
Again - you can stick any degrading names to anyone, according to the way you feel about them, but it has no bearing whatsoever, because facts are facts.
You can call Motorola a "terrorist" all you want, since Poroshenko decided to name his atrocities towards the civil population of the Eastern part of Ukraine "Anti-Terrorist Operation," however no matter what "patriotic Ukrainians" would love the rest of the world to believe, the world already knows that it is not some "Anti -Terrorist Operation," but in fact a war. And since it's a war, the usage of such labels as "terrorist" in this war is useless, unless you label the actions of the Kiev's government bombing the civil population as "terrorist" as well.
When it comes to definition "war criminal," ( since as you said Motorola killed 15 POWs,) then Ukrainian forces are guilty of these crimes in no lesser way. ( We all know the stories when initially the DNR commandment was quite generous with Ukrainian conscripts at least, returning POWs to their parents, in good health,) but it was definitely not a case with DNR POWs, that were beaten to a pulp and murdered. So I am not surprised that the attitude of the DNR soldiers AND commandment have changed with time.
And as for the supposedly "imaginary heroes" - again, they are not "mine." Russians do not live in the imaginary world as Ukrainians lately it seems, so they have good, sound reasons to consider someone as a hero under the circumstances. There are no such heroes in Ukraine and can't be in this war, because this war indeed gives no honor to Ukraine, since it's based on dumb, nationalist sentiment.
I understand your deep feelings. Im genuinely surprised to your speech about that Russian know what is really happening in LDNR. I guess that you have never been there, either before or during the war. I was there in the summer 2014 with a specific mission. I wasnt as a military and as a civilian in the heart of border conflict. What kind of atrocities against the civilian population, you write I dont understand. Yes there were civilian casualties, but they are random. They come in any war. If Ukrainian army deliberately destroyed the civilian would have been hundreds of thousands victims. But that didnt happen.
I assume that you are a RT-zombie, or a paid propagandist.
It is very sad; not just sad - tragic. ( That's what I think every time when I see those haunted places.)
Everything that took place in the 90ies was tragic for Russia.
I think the whole history of Russia is one big tragedy.
I understand your deep feelings. Im genuinely surprised to your speech about that Russian know what is really happening in LDNR. I guess that you have never been there, either before or during the war. I was there in the summer 2014 with a specific mission. I wasnt as a military and as a civilian in the heart of border conflict. What kind of atrocities against the civilian population, you write I dont understand. Yes there were civilian casualties, but they are random. They come in any war. If Ukrainian army deliberately destroyed the civilian would have been hundreds of thousands victims. But that didnt happen.
I assume that you are a RT-zombie, or a paid propagandist.
I have been to and/or near the area almost every years since the 90's. It has always been, since independence, the further east you go, the less enthusiasm regarding Kiev there was. The main, underlying issue that upon independence, the borders just fell as they were, without regard to whether they were the borders they were suppose to be. The borders were created by the USSR for the purpose of the USSR, which does not equate to the borders working for 15 different countries.
But besides the main underlying issue, that was actually tolerable, however, two things were not tolerable:
1. East Ukraine, Donbass in particular, is one of the industrial areas of the country, and one of the most tax and economic contributors to the country. However, there has been constant grumblings about the area getting its taxes taken from them, and given to the poorer west, who many feel are not "Ukrainians" but Poles/Hungarians under the guise of being Ukrainian.
2. Kiev being in close proximity of the west and central Ukraine, those areas, especially the west, having a proportionally large influence on national politics, despite their lack of voting power. You saw this with the Orange revolt, and saw this with Maiden. This was not eastern Ukrainians going by the masses, they had jobs to attend to and live far away, this was the western people with no jobs or care in the world, and those in and around Kiev. The Orange revolt was such a failure that they voted back in Yanukovich. The Maiden revolt in my opinion is a failure as well.
All the above was actually somewhat tolerable, except Maiden was the spark that ignited the powder keg. Yanukovich, like him or hate him, was elected fairly as stated by outside observers. He had the msot support where? From Crimea and the Donbass area. Now, all of a sudden he, the person Donbass and Crimea voted for, is ousted, not in accordance to the constitution, and the first thing the new gov does is to start politically targeting the support base of Yanukovich.
The damn new election was to take place in 2015, I have no idea why no one could wait. Oh yes, they could not wait because they would never have the votes to put who they want in. They also wanted the EU deal, a horrible deal economically for Ukraine, and all for what? For the hope of having visas in the future (eventual entry to the EU) so they can flee to west Europe just as millions of Poles did when they got into the EU. Yea, for the love of Ukraine.
So, what in the hell would anyone expect happen? Anyone, I mean anyone who has spent any kind of time there would know the hostile feelings that were already there, and what the people of the area would think if an event like this occurred. The only people surprised by it are those who were obtuse to the situation. Look how Kiev now treats the inhabitants of the regions; what has Kiev done to even suggest the inhabitants of Donbass and Crimea are welcomed and loved by Kiev? If the people as Kiev has stated are "under duress and held hostage by terrorist forces", then why do things like cut pensions off and electricity supplies off?
Was an armed revolt the best solution? Probably not, but maybe at the moment it seemed the optimal solution to a 20+ year old problem that the Ukrainian gov was not solving. Is Russia involved? of course, but Russia would not be involved at all if there was not a massive local support for their involvement. Should Russia be involved? Probably not, but they are taking a page out of the US's book, which does not make it right, but makes it what it is.
Added new interesting article. The Iultin had a population of up to 5000 people during the of plant operation, it is the largest closed settlement in Chukotka. Many photos in article:
We are enemies? Hmm. Russians do not consider you as an enemies. But thank you honestly reported it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maksim_Frolov
I thought we were neighbors.
Well, calling the Russians enemies is too harsh, but one must recognise that Russia is the only military threat to Finland. That's a fact. You are not dangerous and a Russian tourist is a positive thing, but Putin is dangerous, so that's a big difference too.
I understand that Russians may be having a hard time understand why there can be an animosity. Russian history tells about glorious wars against Sweden, and conviniently ignore that for example in these wars,
the Russian occupation was brutal and even ethnic cleansing.
The Russification of Finland from 1899-1905 and 1908-1917 is not mentioned in Russia, and the aim for that was to destroy the Grand Duchy and Finland as a whole.
The Winter War is rarely discussed, ignoring the unlawful occupation of a neutral country, and merely mentioning a small border conflict.
Similarly in 1941 it was the "evil fascist" Finns who attacked poor Russia and deserved to be punished. The war reparations Finland had to pay were as big as Italy had to pay, which were totally unfair. Sorry about our part in the Siege of Leningrad, though.
During the Cold War official propaganda said that Finland is a peaceful neighbour to the USSR which thrived by the economic relations to the Soviet Union. In reality Finland was scared of the USSR, which tried and succeeded in influencing Finnish politics.
The Wikipedia article about anti-Russian sentiment sums it up quite well:
In Finland, anti-Russian sentiment has been studied since the 1970s. The history of anti-Russian sentiment has two main theories. One of them considers the Finns and the Russians have been the arch-enemy throughout history. The position is considered to have been dominated at least the 1700s since the days of the Greater Wrath, when the Russians "occupied Finland and raped it." This view largely assumes that through the centuries, "Russia is a violent slayer and Finland is an innocent, virginal victim".
Of course Finland hasn't always been the innocent virginal victim, but some people think like that.
In 1920s and 1930s this anti-Russian and anti-Communism propaganda had a fertile ground.[90] Failed Russian actions to terminate Finnish autonomy and cultural uniqueness (1899–1905 and 1908–1917) contributed greatly to both the anti-Russian feelings in Finland. The Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact which granted Finland to Soviet Union, followed the attack of the Soviet Union against Finland during the Winter War and Soviet annexation of large parts of Finland. This caused lots of casualties among Finnish population and 11% of the total population having to leave their homes in the caused a lot of bitterness, and has endured as the Karelian question in Finnish politics.
Of course nobody in Finland and nobody in Russia except Zhirinovsky wants war or hatred, but I can assure you Maksim that Finland watches Russia very worried. Not only because of Crimea and Ukraine, but also concerning democracy, press freedom and human rights, something that we hold very dear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxicek
Hmm... I don't remember so many big conflicts between Russia and Finland for the last 1000 years, exept the Winter war, I learned this war some days ago in my university and I found a Russian song of those times "Ota meidät vastaan, Suomi-kaunotar" (1939)
Finland was almost 700 years a part of Sweden, and IIRC Sweden (including Finland) fought 31 wars against Russia. Before that there were the Finnish-Novgorodian wars.
You can moan as much as you want but it doesn't change the fact that Finland was an Axis state during WWII.
And you can moan as much as you want, but all countries who are Russia's western neighbours see Russia as a not very positive thing.
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I don't remember so many big conflicts between Russia and Finland for the last 1000 years, exept the Winter war, I learned this war some days ago in my university and I found a Russian song of those times "Ota meidät vastaan, Suomi-kaunotar" (1939) 
