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I can name 2 socialist countries that are indiputable successes. Sweden and Norway. Socialism done correctly works.
Sweden and Norway?? What about the 800 tons gorilla in the room, China...
China has been the most successful country in the history of human kind in pulling as many people as quickly out of poverty...and it did not follow any of the Washington consensus, "free market" advice.
Strict state control on the most important pillars of the economy and closed Capital Account.
Russia should have learned a thing or two from China instead of listening to the American advice leading to the disastrous 1990s which still affect somewhat the country (the recent birth rate new deceleration is largely due to the much smaller generation born in that era)
Sweden and Norway?? What about the 800 tons gorilla in the room, China...
China has been the most successful country in the history of human kind in pulling as many people as quickly out of poverty...and it did not follow any of the Washington consensus, "free market" advice.
Strict state control on the most important pillars of the economy and closed Capital Account.
Russia should have learned a thing or two from China instead of listening to the American advice leading to the disastrous 1990s which still affect somewhat the country (the recent birth rate new deceleration is largely due to the much smaller generation born in that era)
I hear this opinion expressed by Russians from time to time, but I totally disagree with it.
From one totalitarian government to another one, of "capitalist" type - this is the disaster of a different proportion.
Why China became a so-called "success" to begin with?
Because its rulers were willing to sell the labor of their compatriots for cheap to the US ( hence these two economies are still closely intertwined.)
(America would never offer Russians this kind of deal for a couple of reasons.)
Other than that - China is still the country that send the "political opponents" to the labor camps, turn them into the "organ donors," and is still still the country that puts the profits above the safety issues, and on and on.
No, that's not a healthy society ( or the example that needs to be followed.)
When it comes to Norway and Sweden - I see something wicked going on with their "child welfare services" that makes me think that there is some kind of "forced conformity" is going on in that society ( Sweden seems to be a lesser suspect, but still... )
So Germany or France could have been better examples of successful societies I think ( a better example to follow,) minus what's going on lately of course, with loads of immigration that strains their social security net and the rest.
I hear this opinion expressed by Russians from time to time, but I totally disagree with it.
From one totalitarian government to another one, of "capitalist" type - this is the disaster of a different proportion.
Why China became a so-called "success" to begin with?
Because its rulers were willing to sell the labor of their compatriots for cheap to the US ( hence these two economies are still closely intertwined.)
(America would never offer Russians this kind of deal for a couple of reasons.)
Other than that - China is still the country that send the "political opponents" to the labor camps, turn them into the "organ donors," and is still still the country that puts the profits above the safety issues, and on and on.
No, that's not a healthy society ( or the example that needs to be followed.)
When it comes to Norway and Sweden - I see something wicked going on with their "child welfare services" that makes me think that there is some kind of "forced conformity" is going on in that society ( Sweden seems to be a lesser suspect, but still... )
So Germany or France could have been better examples of successful societies I think ( a better example to follow,) minus what's going on lately of course, with loads of immigration that strains their social security net and the rest.
I don't see China as a good example either, but they are a huge country therefore comparisons with them make a lot more sense.
Norway and Sweden are fairly small, compact countries whose populations are well educated. The same applies to places like Austria, Switzerland and Denmark. However, it's not reasonable to expect Russia, China or even the US for that matter to be governed in such a manner. You can even throw in India and Brazil for good measure.
All five of these countries have tons of primitive people that are too stubborn, stuck in their own ways, who refuse to listen to their opponents.
I don't see China as a good example either, but they are a huge country therefore comparisons with them make a lot more sense.
Norway and Sweden are fairly small, compact countries whose populations are well educated. The same applies to places like Austria, Switzerland and Denmark. However, it's not reasonable to expect Russia, China or even the US for that matter to be governed in such a manner. You can even throw in India and Brazil for good measure.
All five of these countries have tons of primitive people that are too stubborn, stuck in their own ways, who refuse to listen to their opponents.
This is correct, that's why I keep on pointing at the fact that there is NO such thing as "one formula that works for all."
What works for one country won't work for the other one, and that's why Soviet experience ( particularly the later period) was fitting for Russia in many ways (all the necessary adjustments provided.)
And Russian model clearly wouldn't work for the US ( and vice versa.)
Sweden and Norway?? What about the 800 tons gorilla in the room, China...
China has been the most successful country in the history of human kind in pulling as many people as quickly out of poverty...and it did not follow any of the Washington consensus, "free market" advice.
Strict state control on the most important pillars of the economy and closed Capital Account.
Russia should have learned a thing or two from China instead of listening to the American advice leading to the disastrous 1990s which still affect somewhat the country (the recent birth rate new deceleration is largely due to the much smaller generation born in that era)
I was going to mention China but from what I have read they are a little different due to sheer scale. China is nothing like Scandanavia. Erasure points out a few things about China that are in fact correct but may not know the why of these practices.
Historically they have been on a treadmill for most of their history. If they move left they fall off and 10s of millions die, if they move right they get the same. If they plod straight ahead on that treadmill not so many die and progress is made. That's why the guy with new ideas on how to do things end up in prison, the rebel nail sticking out of the floor gets pounded back into place.
I think Russia is largely the same when it comes to their society. Russians and Chinese people accept less freedom for the sake of stability. Stability is everything, with war and strife you get nothing but misery and death.
The Scandanavians have little in common with the Chinese.
While bringing up world War 2 history, how about the divisions of Russians led and formed by Russian generals who fought the Red Army. How do they figure into your anti polish and Ukrainian rants?
If you want to go down that road boyo, I will. I know who and what the Hiwis were. It's going to be like me clubbing seals in WOT though.
I was going to mention China but from what I have read they are a little different due to sheer scale. China is nothing like Scandanavia. Erasure points out a few things about China that are in fact correct but may not know the why of these practices.
Historically they have been on a treadmill for most of their history. If they move left they fall off and 10s of millions die, if they move right they get the same. If they plod straight ahead on that treadmill not so many die and progress is made. That's why the guy with new ideas on how to do things end up in prison, the rebel nail sticking out of the floor gets pounded back into place.
I think Russia is largely the same when it comes to their society. Russians and Chinese people accept less freedom for the sake of stability. Stability is everything, with war and strife you get nothing but misery and death.
The Scandanavians have little in common with the Chinese.
"Rich with anecdotal evidence, piercing analysis, and a truly astonishing range of erudition, The Wealth and Poverty of Nations is a "picture of enormous sweep and brilliant insight" (Kenneth Arrow) as well as one of the most audaciously ambitious works of history in decades."
I have a question - what good the "piercing analysis" does, when the evidence is anecdotal?
But anyways, the whole culture that produced gazillion of people ( why?) that eat anything and everything on their way, (dogs and cats including,) never provoked my interest, even less so, as some "example to follow."
And I don't believe that Russia is "largely the same" - no Scrat.
P.S. When it comes to Poland (and anti-Polish sentiment that DKM is accusing me of) - to be honest I learn about all that stuff that Putin is bringing now on the surface in response to Duda's accusations - I learn about it for the first time.
That Polish ambassador in Berlin, the Pilsudsky era - I never knew about it.
Back in Soviet times it was nothing but "Poland is a friend" and "Four Tank-Men and a Dog." That's the way we were taught.
I have a question - what good the "piercing analysis" does, when the evidence is anecdotal?
Never judge a book by its cover. The author covers many things from a wide view point, admittedly there's not a lot of depth but there sure is a lot of well documented sources he uses for references which give you a good sense of what has happened in the past and is going on to this day.
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But anyways, the whole culture that produced gazillion of people ( why?) that eat anything and everything on their way, (dogs and cats including,) never provoked my interest, even less so, as some "example to follow."
And I don't believe that Russia is "largely the same" - no.
Russians have eaten cats, dogs and rats before. More than once. They just don't take it to the extreme the Chinese have in the past and do today. Many people across the world eat strange things. Russians eat anything with fins, that's disgusting. Alot of the same harsh forces that molded Chinese culture also molded Russian culture.
Never judge a book by its cover. The author covers many things from a wide view point, admittedly there's not a lot of depth but there sure is a lot of well documented sources he uses for references which give you a good sense of what has happened in the past and is going on to this day.
Russians have eaten cats, dogs and rats before. More than once. They just don't take it to the extreme the Chinese have in the past and do today. Many people across the world eat strange things.
I am sure they did, when in survival mode ( and probably yes, more than once. ( Siege of Leningrad comes to mind.))
Yet still (when operating in the regular mode,) they classify far more rigidly in their brain, what's for food, what's for companionship, and what should be left alone all together.
For the Chinese it seems, there is no such clearly-defined borders. When I deal with a person that doesn't have these mutually-understood borders, I don't know any longer what to expect from him/her with the rest.
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Russians eat anything with fins, that's disgusting.
Fish is disgusting?
That's news to me.
Other than that, I can tell you what else Russians would eat, that Americans might find disgusting.
Kidneys, livers, brains ( yes, that too,) udder - with other words the parts of domesticated animals that are designated for slaughter are not wasted and can be cooked in the best way possible.
But you can find the same across the "Old world" in the rest of Europe too.
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Alot of the same harsh forces that molded Chinese culture also molded Russian culture.
Even if the forces might be "the same," this does not mean automatically that they lead to the same results.
You know, yesterday, when I was watching these news, regarding the origin ( or rather mutation) of that new corona virus, they were pointing at all these caged animals at the Chinese market, explaining to Russian audience that "these are not pets for sale, it's all food - the rats, the porcupine, the cats (some palm civet cat including,) - I was like "OMG, what kind of crap is that..."
And the presenter ( whoever he was - some biology/medical specialist) was trying to sound not too judgemental, so to the question "is it about time to rethink the diet" he said "no, it's time to rethink the way all this "biomass" is kept and handled." ( The animals with other words and "other critters.")
The "safety issues" you know.
But I tell you what - when Russians come up with some barbaric things ( and they do,) at least the OTHER part of them know the right from wrong and act upon it.
But that's basically what goes hand in hand with when you know what animal is designated for companionship, and which one is for food/milk to begin with.
With other words, when the "rules of the game" that define the "moral and cultural norms" of the society are laid out in familiar to me way.
When you move to the whole different dimension, the whole different outlook and philosophy, the whole different set of morals unfamiliar to me - I am sorry, here you are on your own Scrat)))
I hear this opinion expressed by Russians from time to time, but I totally disagree with it.
From one totalitarian government to another one, of "capitalist" type - this is the disaster of a different proportion.
Why China became a so-called "success" to begin with?
Because its rulers were willing to sell the labor of their compatriots for cheap to the US ( hence these two economies are still closely intertwined.)
(America would never offer Russians this kind of deal for a couple of reasons.)
Other than that - China is still the country that send the "political opponents" to the labor camps, turn them into the "organ donors," and is still still the country that puts the profits above the safety issues, and on and on.
No, that's not a healthy society ( or the example that needs to be followed.)
When it comes to Norway and Sweden - I see something wicked going on with their "child welfare services" that makes me think that there is some kind of "forced conformity" is going on in that society ( Sweden seems to be a lesser suspect, but still... )
So Germany or France could have been better examples of successful societies I think ( a better example to follow,) minus what's going on lately of course, with loads of immigration that strains their social security net and the rest.
You can follow the economic model, you do not have to necessarily follow the political model
Take France for example....their economy involve a lot of state planning and the promotion of "national champions" but it is still a vibrant democracy.
Selling the "labor of their compatriots" cheaply to the US in turn dumb enough to send their production capabilities and the intellectual property that came with it actually, in the end, has been an excellent trade for China. The labor of their compatriots was not worth that much anyway when China was mostly an agrarian society.
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Alot of the same harsh forces that molded Chinese culture also molded Russian culture. 
