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Oh-ho-ho. Maybe you've forgotten how Novgorod princes to move the capital in Kiev? As Kiev princes baptized Slavs with fire and sword? No. Russia, Belarus and Ukraine share a common history. Your attempts to divide the history of ancient Rus to Ukrainian, Russian and Belarus is a mistake.
Oh don't even try.
He is busy re-writing Wikipedia and probably the Chronicles as well)))
P.S. When I read something like "Russians were and remain fratricidal" I hope it finally downs on him that *Russians* were indeed warring, violent and "fratricidal" long before Mongols ever showed up in the picture.
And those "Russians" were all direct descendants of Scandinavians - vikings, "Normans" or whatever you call them. That "the Blonds" were not docile creatures to begin with, is a well-known fact, but while in Mordor, they became fratricidal on top of that, apparently. Must be something in the water)))
When America gives the land back to Native Americans.
Right after Russia will shrink to its natural borders within outer Moscow beltway (even that was grabbed from the finnish tribes). What a Russian nazi does in Australia, shouldnt you be fighting for the Reich or something?
Belarus today. What have made those two women so angry? An innocent question asked in the Belorussian language. An interviewer was insulted, called "nationalist", "bandera" (Ukraine' nationalist leader?", and such. Belarus is gone as something authentic. Russian imperialism and assimilation do its work 24 years after Belarus became an independent nation (without a single damn reason to become one).
Oh-ho-ho. Maybe you've forgotten how Novgorod princes to move the capital in Kiev? As Kiev princes baptized Slavs with fire and sword? No. Russia, Belarus and Ukraine share a common history. Your attempts to divide the history of ancient Rus to Ukrainian, Russian and Belarus is a mistake.
Raiding party of the Viking booty hunters captured what is now Novgorod, and then Viking raiders moved down South. What conclusions could we make except that indigenous tribes couldn't resist Viking raiders? You do realize that if not for Ivan Grozny who drowned Novgorod' autonomy in blood, there is no way Muscovy (later branded Russia) could become one nation with Novgorod?
Muskovy brutally subdued Novgorod, extermination, ethnic cleansing and resettlement of the survivors, filling Novgorod lands with Muscovite colonizers, 600 centuries later a few surviving descendants of the subdued Novgorod people accepted language, culture and myths of Muscovy (Russia). Novgorod history was cleansed and incorporated into the Russian Imperial mythology.
Last edited by RememberMee; 07-27-2015 at 11:08 PM..
Btw, comrades claiming common origin as a proof of the Russian imperial rights. Do you know that 99% of Europe' population has common Indo European origin? Slavs are cousins of the Baltic tribes, slavs and Germanic nations are second cousins. And guess what Goths were there first. Should Germany, for example, adopt a copy cat of the Russian Imperial mythology to justify unification of Europe (including Russia) in the name of historical justice and Indo European purity they (Germans) represent?
Raiding party of the Viking booty hunters captured what is now Novgorod, and then Viking raiders moved down South. What conclusions could we make except that indigenous tribes couldn't resist Viking raiders?
Vikings have been assimilated in 2-3 generations. And question remains open: they captured Novgorod or they were invited to rule . There is no information about any large-scale war. Number of Scandinavians was not big, they could not long hold power without large-scale support of local tribes. But they held power for 750 years.
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Originally Posted by RememberMee
You do realize that if not for Ivan Grozny who drowned Novgorod' autonomy in blood, there is no way Muscovy (later branded Russia) could become one nation with Novgorod?
Oleg of Novgorod united Novgorod and Kiev 600 years before Ivan the Terrible. Single ancient Rus nation was formed before the Mongol invasion. Ivan the Terrible restored ancient Rus state border after the Mongol invasion. But by this time the ancient nation was divided into Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusian. Mongol invasion, expansion of Lithuania and Poland broke ancient Rus nation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee
Muskovy brutally subdued Novgorod, extermination, ethnic cleansing and resettlement of the survivors, filling Novgorod lands with Muscovite colonizers, 600 centuries later a few surviving descendants of the subdued Novgorod people accepted language, culture and myths of Muscovy (Russia). Novgorod history was cleansed and incorporated into the Russian Imperial mythology.
You exaggerate number of victims and cultural differences between Novgorod and Moscow.
Btw, comrades claiming common origin as a proof of the Russian imperial rights.
"Russian imperial right." What do you mean by that?
If desire to subjugate Ukrainians, you're wrong.
If desire to prevent the coming to power of neo-Nazis, to rewrite history, you're right.
Btw, comrades claiming common origin as a proof of the Russian imperial rights. Do you know that 99% of Europe' population has common Indo European origin? Slavs are cousins of the Baltic tribes, slavs and Germanic nations are second cousins. And guess what Goths were there first. Should Germany, for example, adopt a copy cat of the Russian Imperial mythology to justify unification of Europe (including Russia) in the name of historical justice and Indo European purity they (Germans) represent?
Vikings have been assimilated in 2-3 generations. And question remains open: they captured Novgorod or they were invited to rule . There is no information about any large-scale war. Number of Scandinavians was not big, they could not long hold power without large-scale support of local tribes. But they held power for 750 years.
it is not the point. The point is that being conquered by the same raiders is not a proof of being similar in any other way.
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Oleg of Novgorod united Novgorod and Kiev 600 years before Ivan the Terrible..
Much like Solntsevo racketeer gangs united various businesses under its control back in the days.
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Single ancient Rus nation was formed before the Mongol invasion. .
Nation is an18th century concept. 10th century saw various tribes united by paying tribute to the same gangs. It is a long way from there to a nation.
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Ivan the Terrible restored ancient Rus state border after the Mongol invasion. .
How can you restore borders of something without restoring that something? Only Russian imperial mythology allows for that.
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But by this time the ancient nation was divided into Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusian. Mongol invasion, expansion of Lithuania and Poland broke ancient Rus nation..
there was no an ancient nation, and there were no Russians, Ukrainians, etc. during Grozny reign. People didnt think in terms of nations back then. Ukraine didnt become a nation until 20th century, and yet people who are called Ukrainians today preserved similar ethnic identity and language despite lack of uniting nationhood, despite them being split between different Empires, despite prosecution and assimilation policies.
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You exaggerate number of victims and cultural differences between Novgorod and Moscow.
Turning maniacs into saints, denying/justifying/diminishing their crimes is a must have part of being Russian.
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