Culturally speaking is Greece more European or Middle Eastern? (life, traits, influence)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I personally consider Pakistanis to look "foriegn" as an Indian. When I saw a lot of Pakistanis appearing in western media, I genuinely thought that they were from the Middle East; Bollywood thinks that Persian face shapes are more attractive, so I think that's where a lot of Indians get confused that Pakistan is Indian.
Culturally Pakistan doesn't actually share that much with India. If you understand Arabic/Persian culture, you'll also see similarties with things like dress, music, food, etc... The only major point of Pakistanis is that a lot of them speak Urdu, which is the same as an Indian language, but this is found in other parts of the world too: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...oups%29_en.jpg
I agree with your definition of "Near East".
The Middle East for me has always been Turkey to Pakistan. It's based on things like genetics, culture, and political dimensions. Not of forget that Pakistanis LOOK Middle Eastern to me.
I don't know about the ex-soviets. Maybe Paksitan should be placed in Central Asia then? As someone who's from Europe AND India, Pakistan sure does remind me of Turkey.
Not sure. Pakistani people are also varied. Urdu-speaking people kinda look / feel western indians to me. But then I know pashtuns people from the north, near Afghanistan, and they are different, probably closer to Turkey in some way, even though that's stretching it. I know many pakistanis who look far more indian than, say, Arabs.
I have also met someone from Iran, and I believe Afghans and pashtuns are closer to them than to Urdu-speaking people, in some ways.
Not sure. Pakistani people are also varied. Urdu-speaking people kinda look / feel western indians to me. But then I know pashtuns people from the north, near Afghanistan, and they are different, probably closer to Turkey in some way, even though that's stretching it. I know many pakistanis who look far more indian than, say, Arabs.
I have also met someone from Iran, and I believe Afghans and pashtuns are closer to them than to Urdu-speaking people, in some ways.
I think they look Middle Eastern. The Mayor of London for example, or even the Pakistanis in the entertainment industry.
You shouldn't base "Indianess" on the extreme north-west of India. New Delhi Indians look nothing like Pakistanis.
Near Eastern influence, particularly in food and music had a big impact on Greece in the late middle ages through latter centuries, the period of Ottoman Greece.
If you go to 'Greek Fests', events which revolve primarily around food and music, you are going to get a warped impression of Greek culture since you are being exposed to a selective sample of its totality.
Considering Greece's language and religion, Greece is certainly not more Middle Eastern than European.
Norwegians enjoy potatoes and Rock music. This does not make them a Peruvian-Gambian hybrid culture.
Greek cuisine and music have Byzantine origins. Some of the culinary delicacies found in today's Near Eastern cultures(Arabic, Turkish etc..) have Byzantine roots, which in turn go back to Roman and possibly Ancient Greek times.
"Many scholars state that Byzantine koptoplakous and plakountas tetyromenous are the ancestors of modern 'baklava and tiropita' (börek)(cheese-pie) respectively. Both variants descended from the ancient Roman Placenta cake."
Interesting. It is not surprising that Byzantine culture would have had such an impact on Near Eastern society and thus later become thought of as Middle Eastern.
"So no matter what you believe about their ancestry the Ancient Greeks were a pretty mixed bunch, and so are modern Greeks, and for that matter all human populations on the planet. In the thousands of years that have passed these initial Greek speaking people absorbed several populations. To name one undisputed and uncontroversial fact, they incorporated Crete that wasn't Greek in Minoan times. They also spread their genes throughout the Mediterranean. As with the Greek language there is a continuity, NOT an identity. I agree with Luke A Bean's comment that it is the cultural continuity that is important. There are probably Italians whose genes are 100% ancient Greek, but does that make them Greek? " There's definite cultural continuity in modern Greece!
Interesting posts, among them the most interesting being post 8, about the refugees who came after world war 1, and how they affected the country. I will discuss about them in the end of this post.
Back to the question, shortly: I never thought myself as being something else than European (after being Greek of course), but IF European means a blond blue eyed, usually Germanic speaking, protestant, then no, i am not European.
And neither are all Southern Europeans (southern French included), Slavs and Celts (maybe except for Welsh, cause yes, a lot of things I met in Ireland were screaming "mediterraneans of Northern Europe") or Hungarians, maybe not even Fins, only Germans, English, Scandinavians, northern French and maybe Balts are European.
Anyway, I saw music, Dance and food being referred, well, Greece doesn't have belly dance as part of its tradition to start with, we learned belly dance as early as "real Europeans" did
Anyway, this, is what I know as "middle eastern music":
No, neither sounds German or Swedish. But, judging each of them separately, do they really sound like the middle eastern examples above, or closer to them than to music of Southern Europe, Eastern Europe, and even Celts?
For all those who think that European music has always been Mozart, this:
Summarizing, I see myself as Southern European, closer to South Italy first and then to Iberia. Being at nafplio will often remind you of being at Naples, and being at Mykonos will often remind you of being at Andalucia. Corfu has much venetian influence, and Rhodes looks like malta . I also see some relations with Eastern Europe and Celtic Europe. I definitely struggle to find similarities with Dutch or Danes, but if you ask me where i would feel more comfortable or "at home" to live, in Egypt/Lebanon or in Netherlands, well, you already know the answer. nor i consider myself superior to my girlfriend or my future wife, nor she will ever wear a hijab of dance to belly dance, not to mention that I eat pork at least once per week
Anyway, European or not, these is us
if we are not European we can still join the Arabic league
Quote:
Greek popular culture got a big Middle Eastern Greek shot in the arm after its losing war with Turkey after WW I. There was an exchange of populations that brought a million or more Greeks from Anatolia - with their distinctive culture - into Greece.
this event really happened, and actually 3/4 of this mass wasn't even Greece, they came in Greece as Christians.
but
Quote:
And it changed Greek popular culture considerably from what I have read.
this applies for the "pan-Greek" culture, and what we show to the tourists, or what you will see at Greek festivals.
But in fact, native arts in each of the Greek regions did not really change, i personally, having zero ancestry from this population, know very well what is "mine" and what is "their own".
Anatolian Greek refugees of 1923 brought "rebetiko" music to Greece, which is definitely Eastern and is mostly popular among left-wing, who consider it as "revolutionary music"
they also brought folk music which really is indistinguishable from the secular part of middle eastern music:
Greek cuisine has a deep pasta tradition. So do many South European countries, including Italy where pasta were first discovered (in Greece they are recorded since 13th century).
Is pasta European? And if yes, why? How is it associated more with Sweden than it does with Lybia?
Are Swedish meatballs European? Cause the Levant has a deep tradition at meatballs, but nearby Germany or England do not. is Tikka masala European? Cause an article said that it's an example of British cuisine.
Interesting. It is not surprising that Byzantine culture would have had such an impact on Near Eastern society and thus later become thought of as Middle Eastern.
Thanks for the link.
AND on Russia, don't forget that, because early Russia had extensive ties with Byzantine - both religious and cultural, and that's why Russians comesacross as so strange and so "Eastern" comparably to the rest of Europe.
Russians styled themselves after the Byzantine court as well; clothing and customs alike.
And when during the Council of Florence the Byzantine's Patriarch accepted supremacy of the Roman Pope, ( even if temporarily so,) Russians still stubbornly said "no," sticking to their Byzantine customs and still denouncing the Catholic Church.
In 16th century, when a lot of Westerners started living in Moscow ( be that numerous POWs captured during different campaigns, or officers coming to serve in the Russian army, or protestants looking for refuge in Russia,) Russian tzars and clergy were reluctant to allow the construction of the Catholic church. The first Lutheran church however was built in Moscow already back in the mid 1500ies.
It is important not to mistake the modern boundaries of "Greece" with the people who are the "Greeks." Greece is a country in Europe. Part Balkan part Southern Europe in culture seems about right to me.
The "Greeks" are better thought of as a diaspora people of the Eastern Mediterranean region, and now the world. Greek people lived in cities and coastal areas in Asia Minor, the Black Sea, the Levant, Egypt, and many other places in large numbers until just about 100 years ago when forced relocations caused most of these communities to relocate to the state of Greece and other countries.
The diaspora continues though. Greeks in American, Australia, and other places still practice their faith, speak their language, cook their cuisine, and are connected with their culture.
Don't mean to stir a controversy but everytime I go to a Greek Festival, alot of the music, food, dance, drama, etc seem to be more of the middle eastern variety rather than European, but what are your views? please share? do Greeks view themselves as Europeans or Middle Eastern?
Funny - or not so funny - how the OP never returned to this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giannis
Back to the question, shortly: I never thought myself as being something else than European (after being Greek of course) ... .
No doubt, since the decline of the Ottoman Empire and the definitive entry of western European powers into the eastern Mediterranean (they had failed in the 1100s-1200s period), Greeks to increasing degrees have considered themselves European. It has been a mutually beneficial relationship, on balance, and Greeks know from whence their bread is buttered, so to speak. And that includes the vast majority of Greeks (and Cypriots) who have emigrated to English-speaking countries, France and Germany, etc.
By now, this identity is consolidated, there is hardly any question about it.
I have even asked a few Greeks who are professional historians, and still refer to the Europeans as Franks - which itself speaks historical volumes in one word -, whether they would be better off in alliance with Turkey or Russia, for example, and the answer, after a tiny bit of hesitation, is a resounding no.
Now, in terms of music, food, dance, drama, etc., we can go back as far into history as we want and find threads of influence that have all and nothing - but mostly nothing - to do with modern and contemporary geopolitical terminology.
Still, many feel a driving need to do just that.
Why?
What is this feeling of insecurity that they have to ask the same question over and over and over again, providing long-winded stabs at answers, statistics, maps and photographs of all kinds?
Last edited by bale002; 04-19-2019 at 03:40 AM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
") or Hungarians, maybe not even Fins, only Germans, English, Scandinavians, northern French and maybe Balts are European.
. nor i consider myself superior to my girlfriend or my future wife, nor she will ever wear a hijab of dance to belly dance, not to mention that I eat pork at least once per week 
