Culturally speaking is Greece more European or Middle Eastern? (cultures, cons, time)
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My reaction was somewhat similar, but then i thought "we had some colonies around black sea during 7th century BC, that's where Russians got it from" and mystery solved
Or may be it has something to do with the Mount Athos and those ties that go all the way back in history.
Seriously that makes sense (no ancient Greeks didn't have such hats to spread them to Russia )
Either this is the explanation (the monastery), or Russian occupation of the ionian islands, or Bavarian rule in Greece (if there were similar hats in Germany)
It's nice that you recognize the Mediterranean part of our identity
The whole conversation started with the statement "Greece is a Balkan country", which technically means that "Greece is Balkan as much as Bosnia or Albania or fyrom are" which is the part that i disagree, as being "partially mediterranean or something else" automatically makes you "not fully balkan", again without disputing that it's partially Balkan. We can agree that we partially disagree
But, i would suggest to not overlook these historical "exceptions" which you mentioned, because these exceptions make up half of latest 1000 years Greek history. Better not overlook the fact that southern mainland was occupied 1 century after Balkans, nor that it was liberated one century later, nor that it never became communistic (well that applies for all of the country), nor that it had a western presence meanwhile Balkans didn't, because all these "exceptions" have shaped Greece mich more than "ottoman rule". This fact is reflected on the several completely accurate in my opinion definitions of Balkans which partially separate Greece (like the one of Britannica that i posted) and on several social and mental indexes, let alone arts like architecture, music gastronomy etc .
Also, do not underestimate these "few ionian islands" that have never been ottoman, they have given birth to nearly one million Greeks, some of them partially from there (like me) others fully.
Also, a comment on 3 , this is probably the reason for the existence of such threads, as without Greek speakers from pontus or Egypt, it would be funny to even wonder if Greeks are European or if they have middle eastern influence
*when i say Balkans i am obviously talking about southern Balkans (deep south Serbia included) and Bosnia, northern Balkans are a completely different story
And since too much conversation about fez
This is what males in my town used to wear. They also had a kind of "pirate-like scarf" but not fez, and certainly nothing middle eastern
I don't think it's common anywhere in Balkans
I think we agree more than we disagree. Both yourself and my wife are from islands in the Mediterranean, but obviously not all Greeks are.
Your island is going to shape your experience though. Being from an Ionian island, yeah, far more contact with Western Europe, especially Italy. Being from Fourni, my wife's great-grandfather came to America in the 1900s to avoid conscription in the Ottoman navy during the Balkan Wars. Her island of Fourni was an Ottoman possession until WWI, so obviously, "Ottoman Rule," was far more important to those Greeks than the "exceptions" of the Greeks who gained freedom earlier.
I do think you conflate "Greece" and "Greeks" a bit too much. Some Greeks haven't lived in Europe for hundreds, maybe thousands of years. Many fled Asia Minor and the Middle East after WWI and came straight to the United States, Australia, without any stopover in the modern state of Greece.
Edit: I am not sure anyone, including the Turks, still wear fezzes. My point was that Ottoman dress and customs were spread throughout their empire, including Greece.
Last edited by westsideboy; 04-22-2019 at 03:58 PM..
I was born, and half of my ancestry is from, mainland, and still can not understand this pattern of putting all of the mainland into the same basket and separating it from the islands. Especially the coasts of Southern mainland are not different from the islands, and coasts of Southern mainland is where most of the country's population lives in and where most of the population is from.
I am aware of the existence of these Greeks who never lived in Europe, some people here do not even recognize them as Greek, but it's these Greeks who are the definition of exceptions, not the natives which in the second paragraph you call exceptions. The vast majority of the population is originated from the regions that you previously called "exceptions" which were liberated earlier, and this is where the capital of the country is located as well. Yes back in 1900s Greeks of middle east made up a great percentage of Greek diaspora, but today their ancestors are either assimilated into middle eastern societies, or live in the new world. Greeks who live here, the future of the country are from the "European exceptions", and I see no reason to consider myself less European because of these populations
Again, the customs and dresses that you talk about apply for specific regions, or specific classes. I know local civilization very well, it doesn't have ottoman influence, at least to the degree that you think. Fez in most of country was associated with guerrillas. I know that turks do not wear fez today, I am trying to explain that fez was not common here excluding specific classes, which in my town didn't exist. And again, all these things happened centuries ago. Things are completely different today
If you want to learn things about Greece I think that paying attention to what natives (who live here, not in another continent) say is the best way. Making assumptions is part of human nature, but insisting on them when natives themselves explain that they are wrong, doesn't offer anything
I was born, and half of my ancestry is from, mainland, and still can not understand this pattern of putting all of the mainland into the same basket and separating it from the islands. Especially the coasts of Southern mainland are not different from the islands, and coasts of Southern mainland is where most of the country's population lives in and where most of the population is from.
I am aware of the existence of these Greeks who never lived in Europe, some people here do not even recognize them as Greek, but anyway since you talk about exceptions, these Greeks are the definition of exception, not the natives which in the second paragraph you call exceptions.
Again, the customs and dresses that you talk about apply for specific regions, or specific classes. I know local civilization very well, it doesn't have ottoman influence, at least to the degree that you think. Fez in most of country was associated with guerrillas. I know that turks do not wear fez today, I am trying to explain you that fez was not common here excluding specific classes, which in my town didn't exist, and so it was not worn
If you want to learn things about Greece I think that paying attention to what natives (who live here, not in another continent) say is the best way. Making assumptions is part of human nature, but insisting on them when natives themselves explain that they are wrong, doesn't offer anything
I am not lumping all Greeks into the same basket, mainlanders or otherwise. I am the one making the argument that stock language like "Greece is a Mediterranean country" is overly simplistic and fails to recognize the diversity that exists within the modern state of Greece, and the Greek people (third time I have said that, btw.)
My Mother-in-law cut her teeth herding goats, harvesting horta, and tending the olive trees on a small Aegean island without electricity or running water. She is the main source of my information. I think that you have been arguing with multiple people for long enough about this topic that you are assuming too much disagreement and trolling from me.
-- Modern Greece is a cool place that is part of several different geographic and cultural regions.
----Modern Greeks are a fascinating people with many different stories to tell.
Last edited by westsideboy; 04-22-2019 at 05:33 PM..
I am not lumping all Greeks into the same basket, mainlanders or otherwise. I am the one making the argument that stock language like "Greece is a Mediterranean country" is overly simplistic and fails to recognize the diversity that exists within the modern state of Greece, and the Greek people (third time I have said that, btw.)
My Mother-in-law cut her teeth herding goats, harvesting horta, and tending the olive trees on a small Aegean island without electricity or running water. She is the main source of my information. I think that you have been arguing with multiple people for long enough about this topic that you are assuming too much disagreement and trolling from me.
-- Modern Greece is a cool place that is part of several different geographic and cultural regions.
----Modern Greeks are a fascinating people with many different stories to tell.
*With only a second specific user, the rest don't say something significantly different from what i am saying
Anyway, i will agree with everything else in this post, and take the simplistic "Greece is a Mediterranean country" in my first response, as a response to your "Greece is a Balkan country" in your first post, which was equally simplistic, as you automatically associated Greece exclusively with a specific group with which we do not associate ourselves (i repeat what i have said in previous posts, we certainly have many things in common, but associating yourself with someone is different, and requires more than having things in common).
*With only a second specific user, the rest don't say something significantly different from what i am saying
Anyway, i will agree with everything else in this post, and take the simplistic "Greece is a Mediterranean country" in my first response, as a response to your "Greece is a Balkan country" in your first post, which was equally simplistic, as you automatically associated Greece exclusively with a specific group with which we do not associate ourselves (i repeat what i have said in previous posts, we certainly have many things in common, but associating yourself with someone is different, and requires more than having things in common).
I never said "Greece is a Balkan Country." That was another poster, go back and look on page 4 of this thread if you don't believe me. This is what I said first:
It is important not to mistake the modern boundaries of "Greece" with the people who are the "Greeks." Greece is a country in Europe. Part Balkan part Southern Europe in culture seems about right to me. "
I never said "Greece is a Balkan Country." That was another poster, go back and look on page 4 of this thread if you don't believe me. This is what I said first:
It is important not to mistake the modern boundaries of "Greece" with the people who are the "Greeks." Greece is a country in Europe. Part Balkan part Southern Europe in culture seems about right to me. "
I enjoy all the pictures you post, and your insight.
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