Culturally speaking is Greece more European or Middle Eastern? (place, Russian, percentage)
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You do not have the right to call us "xenophobic" the same time that we have saved thousands of "exotic aliens" like you call them, and still host them the same time that others, and especially central-Eastern Europe Eastern Europe and balkans reject them
Well you're wrong...it's like you've missed the news the past 3-4 years. The current trend according to BBC/Deutsche Welle and the likes is that western europe (led by the glorious Nigel Farage and Le Pen) together with Hungary's Orban and Greece "Golden Dawn"/Tsipras and ofcourse: Salvini are supposed to save Europe from Muslims while the real eastern europe are just pro-american, pro-muslim retards who only care about getting into Nato and the EU (Ukraine, Bulgaria, Romania, Macedonia, etc.).
You must be a minority with views like that.
PS: I don't care if it's macedonia/fyrom or whatever...
Guys do yourself the favor and visit Greece once in your lifetime, visit Athens, peloponnese, visit santorini, galaxidi or nafpaktos, visit monemvasia or Rhodes, visit corfu or Chania and then come here to talk about what Greece is.
I will agree about Cyprus, being surrounded by the middle east it can not avoid the specific influence. And to be fair it's also genetically closer to Lebanon than to Greece. But even Cyprus, is too European for a country which has no border with other countries than turkey or Lebanon and Syria. It's much more European than, let's say, turkey , which has borders with several European nations
The funniest part is about the "alliance part", as we are already allies with Egypt, and as for turkey, hostility in 99% of cases comes from the other side, we rarely are hostile. We rather support a future Turkish EU membership (even though that looks somewhat impossible)
You do not have the right to call us "xenophobic" the same time that we have saved thousands of "exotic aliens" like you call them, and still host them the same time that others, and especially central-Eastern Europe Eastern Europe and balkans reject them
I have been to Greece, married a Greek-American girl and visited her home island, baptized my kids GO, etc. etc.
I don't disagree that Greece is a Mediterranean state in part, but it is certainly part of the Balkans as well. All of those countries are united by
1. History of Ottoman occupation for centuries
2. Orthodox Christianity
3. "Balkan League" wars against the Ottomans in the early 20th century
4. Mainland Greeks, Albanians, Southern Slavs are part of the same genetic community
5. The whole "fez and skirt" ethnic costume thing, drinking coffee out of little cups, wearing the "evil eye" medallions, spitting when someone compliments your baby, etc.,
I will quote Robert Kaplan, Greece: Western Mistress, Eastern Bride. Greece is both a birthplace and crossroads of cultures, something to be proud of
Albania is pretty Mediterranean. It has a coast and a mild Mediterranean climate/cuisine/culture. Being Muslim doesn't mean anything. Turkey and Tunisia are Muslim too and quite Mediterranean, actually they have a direct access to Mediterranean Sea. Just go to Durres or Vlore on Albanian coast. It's not that much different from Greece imho. Friendly people, mostly olive skinned like Greeks, there is some Slavic influence from the past just like in Greece etc.
I have been to Greece, married a Greek-American girl and visited her home island, baptized my kids GO, etc. etc.
I don't disagree that Greece is a Mediterranean state in part, but it is certainly part of the Balkans as well. All of those countries are united by
1. History of Ottoman occupation for centuries
2. Orthodox Christianity
3. "Balkan League" wars against the Ottomans in the early 20th century
4. Mainland Greeks, Albanians, Southern Slavs are part of the same genetic community
5. The whole "fez and skirt" ethnic costume thing, drinking coffee out of little cups, wearing the "evil eye" medallions, spitting when someone compliments your baby, etc.,
I will quote Robert Kaplan, Greece: Western Mistress, Eastern Bride. Greece is both a birthplace and crossroads of cultures, something to be proud of
No offence, but even though much is true, I see many generalizations and wrong things in your answer
1 there are parts of Greece which have never been occupied by ottomans, see ionian islands and mani, and the same time many non-balkan parts of Europe that have been ottoman as well, see Hungary, Ukraine, part of slovakia etc. But the most important, the rest 60% of Greece (southern mainland and the islands) were for 1,5-2 centuries less under ottomans than all southern Balkans.
The same time, other than a coasts of Montenegro there was no part of Balkans with Venetian, Frankish, genovese etc occupation like Greece was before ottomans, and equally no part of southern Balkans with central or European rule, like Greece had Bavarians
2 90% of orthodox people in the world have nothing to do with Balkans
3 true, but equally lack of communism in Greece more recently
4 no they are not. Your article is a distortion of the already criticized original sarnos study, who compared Greece, Balkans and southern Italy exclusively. In other studies where central italy is included, it's genetically closer to Greece than Balkans are
Exception is northern 20% of the country . The rest of the mainland is closer to abruzzo and Tuscany
5 not sure what the last one you write is and if it applies here the way you think, but the rest are partially true and partially wrong. The "fez and skirt" was the dress of guerrillas 2 centuries ago, not anything that masses used to wear regularly. There are several dresses in Greece that have nothing "stereotypically Balkan" in particular, see https://www.quora.com/Have-you-ever-...han-Spyridakos or https://www.quora.com/Why-does-the-A...han-Spyridakos
The rest are true, but meanwhile in Greece similarities are limited to these, southern Balkans and Anatolia have further similarities, and Greece further similarities with southern Europe. Yes we drink that kind of coffee, but we frequently eat pastitsio (similar to lasagne) etc
I can post thousands of things regarding architecture, cuisine, family types (nuclear family here, community family in balkans) etc and how we differ from these and many other aspects from Balkans but not from south Europe
My point is not that we are irrelevant from Balkans. My point is that, we are what Britannica describes: a country with specific regions being Balkan but the biggest part being Mediterranean:
Since you have visited your wife's island, you already know its architecture is closer to Andalusian than, let's say, berat, or prilep . You will never see anything like Rhodes or nafplio in Balkans, and nothing like berat in southern Greece or the islands
For these and several other reasons that i can post later, i and most of southern Greeks and islanders do not associate ourselves with Balkans, but rather with southern Mediterranean Europe, without ignoring our similarities with Balkans
In other words , the part that i disagree is that you associated the country with the peninsula, if you just said that it has similarities i wouldn't have any disagreement
No offence, but even though much is true, I see many generalizations and wrong things in your answer
1 there are parts of Greece which have never been occupied by ottomans, see ionian islands and mani, and the same time many non-balkan parts of Europe that have been ottoman as well, see Hungary, Ukraine, part of slovakia etc. But the most important, the rest 60% of Greece (southern mainland and the islands) were for 1,5-2 centuries less under ottomans than all southern Balkans.
The same time, other than a coasts of Montenegro there was no part of Balkans with Venetian, Frankish, genovese etc occupation like Greece was before ottomans, and equally no part of southern Balkans with central or European rule, like Greece had Bavarians
2 90% of orthodox people in the world have nothing to do with Balkans
3 true, but equally lack of communism in Greece more recently
4 no they are not. Your article is a distortion of the already criticized original sarnos study, who compared Greece, Balkans and southern Italy exclusively. In other studies where central italy is included, it's genetically closer to Greece than Balkans are
Exception is northern 20% of the country . The rest of the mainland is closer to abruzzo and Tuscany
5 not sure what the last one you write is and if it applies here the way you think, but the rest are partially true and partially wrong. The "fez and skirt" was the dress of guerrillas 2 centuries ago, not anything that masses used to wear regularly. There are several dresses in Greece that have nothing "stereotypically Balkan" in particular, see https://www.quora.com/Have-you-ever-...han-Spyridakos or https://www.quora.com/Why-does-the-A...han-Spyridakos
The rest are true, but meanwhile in Greece similarities are limited to these, southern Balkans and Anatolia have further similarities, and Greece further similarities with southern Europe. Yes we drink that kind of coffee, but we frequently eat pastitsio (similar to lasagne) etc
I can post thousands of things regarding architecture, cuisine, family types (nuclear family here, community family in balkans) etc and how we differ from these and many other aspects from Balkans but not from south Europe
My point is not that we are irrelevant from Balkans. My point is that, we are what Britannica describes: a country with specific regions being Balkan but the biggest part being Mediterranean:
Since you have visited your wife's island, you already know its architecture is closer to Andalusian than, let's say, berat, or prilep . You will never see anything like Rhodes or nafplio in Balkans, and nothing like berat in southern Greece or the islands
For these and several other reasons that i can post later, i and most of southern Greeks and islanders do not associate ourselves with Balkans, but rather with southern Mediterranean Europe, without ignoring our similarities with Balkans
In other words , the part that i disagree is that you associated the country with the peninsula, if you just said that it has similarities i wouldn't have any disagreement
No offense taken.
1. Do you have a link for your genetic study? That looks like a graphed Eurogenes K15 to my eye. The graph you posted does indeed show the Greek ethnicity stretching for overlapping Kosavars all the way down to Southern Italy. This does not contradict, but rather confirm the results of the study I sent you. Some Greeks (mainlanders) are closer genetically to the Southern Balkans, others (islanders) are still very close matches to other Southern European populations, like Southern Italians and Cypriots.
Northern Italians are Mediterraneans admixed with Celts, Germans, and other groups that approximate the influence of Slavic migrations on mainland Greek populations (NE European and Steepe like genes.) Point being Northern Italians and Southern Italians are not part of the same genetic population either, as your chart correctly indicates.
2. Meh. I agree with your overall point, but exceptions don't make the rules. The Ottomans were in charge of the Balkans and Greece for centuries, the fact that a few island were never occupied and other were taken later doesn't really change the overall fact. Same with the fez. It was worn, be it for rebel battle, polite conversations, etc. This is again an Ottoman influenced trait common in the Balkans.
4. Yes, Most Orthodox are Russian, but other than Greece, how many Orthodox nations touch the Mediterranean? How many Balkan countries are majority Orthodox? Again, it is a trait in which the country clusters with Balkan neighbors, not Mediterranean ones.
3. Greeks from all over the world are going to have cultural differences based on where they lived. The modern Greek state is a only a small piece of the territory where Greeks lived. It happens to be the Balkan part and the Aegean islands, not Pontus, Smyrna, Alexanderia, etc. But again, we are talking about the country of Greece, not the Greek people.
So, no real disagreement on my part. I clearly see the Mediterranean culture of modern Greece, but there is more to it than just that. Again, it is a compliment in my opinion.
1. Do you have a link for your genetic study? That looks like a graphed Eurogenes K15 to my eye. The graph you posted does indeed show the Greek ethnicity stretching for overlapping Kosavars all the way down to Southern Italy. This does not contradict, but rather confirm the results of the study I sent you. Some Greeks (mainlanders) are closer genetically to the Southern Balkans, others (islanders) are still very close matches to other Southern European populations, like Southern Italians and Cypriots.
Northern Italians are Mediterraneans admixed with Celts, Germans, and other groups that approximate the influence of Slavic migrations on mainland Greek populations (NE European and Steepe like genes.) Point being Northern Italians and Southern Italians are not part of the same genetic population either, as your chart correctly indicates.
2. Meh. I agree with your overall point, but exceptions don't make the rules. The Ottomans were in charge of the Balkans and Greece for centuries, the fact that a few island were never occupied and other were taken later doesn't really change the overall fact. Same with the fez. It was worn, be it for rebel battle, polite conversations, etc. This is again an Ottoman influenced trait common in the Balkans.
4. Yes, Most Orthodox are Russian, but other than Greece, how many Orthodox nations touch the Mediterranean? How many Balkan countries are majority Orthodox? Again, it is a trait in which the country clusters with Balkan neighbors, not Mediterranean ones.
3. Greeks from all over the world are going to have cultural differences based on where they lived. The modern Greek state is a only a small piece of the territory where Greeks lived. It happens to be the Balkan part and the Aegean islands, not Pontus, Smyrna, Alexanderia, etc. But again, we are talking about the country of Greece, not the Greek people.
So, no real disagreement on my part. I clearly see the Mediterranean culture of modern Greece, but there is more to it than just that. Again, it is a compliment in my opinion.
It's nice that you recognize the Mediterranean part of our identity
The whole conversation started with the statement "Greece is a Balkan country", which technically means that "Greece is Balkan as much as Bosnia or Albania or fyrom are" which is the part that i disagree, as being "partially mediterranean or something else" automatically makes you "not fully balkan", again without disputing that it's partially Balkan. We can agree that we partially disagree
But, i would suggest to not overlook these historical "exceptions" which you mentioned, because these exceptions make up half of latest 1000 years Greek history. Better not overlook the fact that southern mainland was occupied 1 century after Balkans, nor that it was liberated one century later, nor that it never became communistic (well that applies for all of the country), nor that it had a western presence meanwhile Balkans didn't, because all these "exceptions" have shaped Greece mich more than "ottoman rule". This fact is reflected on the several completely accurate in my opinion definitions of Balkans which partially separate Greece (like the one of Britannica that i posted) and on several social and mental indexes, let alone arts like architecture, music gastronomy etc .
Also, do not underestimate these "few ionian islands" that have never been ottoman, they have given birth to nearly one million Greeks, some of them partially from there (like me) others fully.
Also, a comment on 3 , this is probably the reason for the existence of such threads, as without Greek speakers from pontus or Egypt, it would be funny to even wonder if Greeks are European or if they have middle eastern influence
*when i say Balkans i am obviously talking about southern Balkans (deep south Serbia included) and Bosnia, northern Balkans are a completely different story
And since too much conversation about fez
This is what males in my town used to wear. They also had a kind of "pirate-like scarf" but not fez, and certainly nothing middle eastern
^
Yes, this "картуз" (the name for this particular kind of hat in Russian) went well into the 30ies, and actually is still regarded as part of the "national folk dress."
P.S. I recognized it right away when I saw it on Greek men for the first time and was very surprised, since I always thought that it was something ORIGINALLY Russian.
^
Yes, this "картуз" (the name for this particular kind of hat in Russian) went well into the 30ies, and actually is still regarded as part of the "national folk dress."
P.S. I recognized it right away when I saw it on Greek men for the first time and was very surprised, since I always thought that it was something ORIGINALLY Russian.
My reaction was somewhat similar, but then i thought "we had some colonies around black sea during 7th century BC, that's where Russians got it from" and mystery solved
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