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Technically Baltimore, then DC based on the Census.
Based on their mainstream definition of “Mid-Atlantic” which captures their transitional nature, if you remove them from contention, I would say Richmond.
many people do because that is what it is categorized as.
"But DC and Raleigh feel Northern" ... well what does Southern feel like? Are you saying big intellectual cities cant be Southern?
Those cities aren't seen as cool like they once were. The coolest cities are in the south now. The "Italian bravado" vibe you were referring to appears to be dying out. The south has risen. Atlanta, Miami, DC are the cool cities now. They don't look to the north as being cool.
Haha…yeah I agree that is more historic and things are changing (the “Italian bravado was decades ago). Speaking even for white people, the rise in popularity of places like Nashville and Austin (if that counts as Southern), in addition to Florida has made the South much more popular. Also ATL and Charlotte have been popular among African Americans for a long time. But not you, but lots of others on this site, seem to take offense to being connected to the south. Maybe it’s only in the weird world of CD, and it’s not like in the real world.
many people do because that is what it is categorized as.
"But DC and Raleigh feel Northern" ... well what does Southern feel like? Are you saying big intellectual cities cant be Southern?
Bingo....
I've lived in and around Raleigh/The Triangle for most of my life (yes; a rarity) and can honestly say I've never heard anyone describe Raleigh as "feeling northern". I wouldn't even be able to conceptualize what that really means.
What aspects of Raleigh make it "northern" vs southern? Even the very high concentration of advanced degree holders and the overall academia-oriented populace (the latter being much stronger in Durham and Chapel Hill than Raleigh)...comes coupled with the dominance of college-sports in athletic fandom. Not to mention the high-concentration of advanced degree holders and overall academia is, outside of the Boston area, not really a characteristic often associated with "northern" cities.
We've had a NHL team for almost 20 years now. Is that it?
The American South
Georgia
South Carolina
Alabama
Mississippi
Tennessee
North Carolina
Louisiana
Arkansas (including Missouri south of U.S. Route 60)
Kentucky (minus Cincinnati suburbs, but including Missouri Bootheel))
North Florida (north of Orlando)
South Virginia (from just north of Charlottesville on southward, including most of Shenandoah Valley and the part of West Virginia south of Charleston)
White people who aren't from the South don't think it is. Which is why people try moving the goalposts on popular areas like Northern Virginia, Charlotte, Raleigh, Miami. So they can still be the "socially acceptable" non-Southern Americans while getting all that the South has to offer them.
Some areas like Miami and Northern Virginia being on kind of the boundary one can argue of the Southern US has made it so that people can make those arguments that they are not Southern because they are too close to other regions and get too much influence from other regions. But I have yet to see an argument given for why Miami is not southern that does not also apply to New Orleans, or other big southern US cities like Atlanta or Houston. No one denies New Orleans being Southern, but the two share traits that make them unique.
The real question for this thread is what is the northernmost city with a SHARED HISTORY with the Southern US? While all American cities share a lengthy history with each other, after all we share a country, there were crucial moments that occurred that made defining cultural regions. Like New England is very well-defined as Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine, Massachusetts, Connecticut and Rhode Island, why? Because in the 1600s and 1700s this landmass was owned by Great Britain while New York was owned by the Dutch as New Amsterdam at the time. Again - why are people upset that the South is defined by the 1800s Civil War and not the pre-US times for New England which is even older? The logic once again falters, because it's not based on anything actually sound, it's based on discriminatory "us vs them" logic in which the South is the oppressed and discriminated and the "us" is the privileged and respected group. People don't want to be in the perceived minority group, they want to keep their "elevated" status as a non-Southern American.
Pre-colonial times is what defined New England, but what other historical events defined other cultural regions of the US? The Western states were heavily defined by the Manifest Destiny is another example.
Whoever said North Carolina is not southern? That seems absurd. These are the places I've heard be debated:
- Baltimore / DC. It's not too hard to understand this one; these cities are very connected with the other cities in the northeast corridor. The culture is more similar to Philadelphia than it is to major southern cities
- NoVA - At the end of the day this area is an extension of DC
- South Florida - Feels more like the Caribbean, has a Cuban culture that has no association with the traditional southern culture
- Missouri - St. Louis feels midwestern, but the areas to the southeast are quite southern
- Oklahoma - 50/50 mixture of southern and great plains elements
- Texas - I think most agree that East Texas and Houston are southern. West of I35, north of Austin is part of the great plains, El Paso is in the mountain west, South Texas has many ties with Northern Mexico, ultimately it's just too geographically big of a state to put into a single cultural region, particularly one rooted a thousand miles to the east.
For the nothernmost southern city, I think I go with Louisville. DC/Baltimore do have some southern elements, but not enough for me to classify as the south.
Last edited by whereiend; 12-30-2022 at 12:51 AM..
Whoever said North Carolina is not southern? That seems absurd. These are the places I've heard be debated:
- Baltimore / DC. It's not too hard to understand this one; these cities are very connected with the other cities in the northeast corridor. The culture is more similar to Philadelphia than it is to major southern cities
- NoVA - At the end of the day this area is an extension of DC
- South Florida - Feels more like the Caribbean, has a Cuban culture that has no association with the traditional southern culture
- Missouri - St. Louis feels midwestern, but the areas to the southeast are quite southern
- Oklahoma - 50/50 mixture of southern and great plains elements
- Texas - I think most agree that East Texas and Houston are southern. West of I35, north of Austin is part of the great plains, El Paso is in the mountain west, South Texas has many ties with Northern Mexico, ultimately it's just too geographically big of a state to put into a single cultural region, particularly one rooted a thousand miles to the east.
For the nothernmost southern city, I think I go with Louisville. DC/Baltimore do have some southern elements, but not enough for me to classify as the south.
The American South
Georgia
South Carolina
Alabama
Mississippi
Tennessee
North Carolina
Louisiana
Arkansas (including Missouri south of U.S. Route 60)
Kentucky (minus Cincinnati suburbs, but including Missouri Bootheel))
North Florida (north of Orlando)
South Virginia (from just north of Charlottesville on southward, including most of Shenandoah Valley and the part of West Virginia south of Charleston)
Southern United States
Alabama
Arkansas
Delaware
Florida
Georgia
Kentucky
Louisiana
Maryland
Mississippi
North Carolina
Oklahoma
South Carolina
Tennessee
Texas
Virginia
West Virginia
Washington, DC
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