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There is no such thing as a free society. Do you have the freedom to stop making your house payments and defend your house from all invaders? Do you have the freedom to make nuclear weapons in your basement to defend yourself and your family from the North Koreans? Do you have the freedom to turn your house into a casino or brothel so you can make a living from it? Do you have the freedom to keep certain people out of your neighborhood because of their race or ethnic background?
Since the purpose of vaccinations is to defend everyone, not just the vaccinated person, from diseases, individuals don't or shouldn't have the right to refuse it. If the North Koreans bribe the Pentagon to let them invade, do you have the right to let your neighbors defend your neighborhood from them while you sit on your sofa and watch TV? Traitors are often shot or hanged. They have no right to live.
As a human being I believe that I do have the right to control what goes into my body and what does not. Do you believe that the government owns a citizen's body or do you believe that a citizen owns their body? Are you pro-choice or pro-life when it comes to abortion? Does the phrase, "keep your laws off of my body" mean anything to you?
Last edited by MissTerri; 04-26-2016 at 01:25 PM..
As a human being I believe that I do have the right to control what goes into my body and what does not. Do you believe that the government owns a citizen's body or do you believe that a citizen owns their body? Are you pro-choice or pro-life when it comes to abortion? Does the phrase, "keep your laws off of my body" mean anything to you?
When your kids infect my kids with deadly diseases, those diseases are entering their bodies. Therefore your argument is an argument in favor of mandatory vaccination. I have a right to control what diseases go into my kids' bodies, by requiring yours to be vaccinated or quarantined.
Plenty of anti-vaccine sentiment in the UHC countries, e.g. much of Europe, Australia, Japan, Canada. Please let's not hijack this thread into a discussion on "socialized medicine".
The lack of socialized medicine was used indirectly as an excuse not to get vaccinated. Therefore it's part of the vaccination argument. The excuse was that capitalist medicine involves powerful lobbies who push vaccination with a profit motive. To get rid of that excuse, vaccination should be pushed by the government with no profit motive. And that's socialized medicine.
When your kids infect my kids with deadly diseases, those diseases are entering their bodies. Therefore your argument is an argument in favor of mandatory vaccination. I have a right to control what diseases go into my kids' bodies, by requiring yours to be vaccinated or quarantined.
No, you really don't have control over the fact that you may be exposed to germs, bacteria and viruses in life, vaccinations or no vaccinations, it will happen. 100% vaccination rate or 80% vaccination rate, you'll be exposed to something whether it's a vpd or a non vpd. You could be exposed via a non-vaccinated kid or via a vaccinated kid. The only thing you can do is protect yourself in the way you see fit, which for you sounds like getting all vaccines.
You didn't answer my questions. Do you believe that the government owns your body? Are you pro-choice when it comes to abortion? Does the phrase, "keep your laws off of my body" mean anything to you? Your views appear to be extremely liberal which makes me presume that you are pro-choice, especially since you dodged the question. If you're pro-choice for abortion and pro-force when it comes to vaccination then I see that as extreme hypocrisy.
Last edited by MissTerri; 04-26-2016 at 02:08 PM..
The lack of socialized medicine was used indirectly as an excuse not to get vaccinated. Therefore it's part of the vaccination argument. The excuse was that capitalist medicine involves powerful lobbies who push vaccination with a profit motive. To get rid of that excuse, vaccination should be pushed by the government with no profit motive. And that's socialized medicine.
If one has ACA-compliant insurance, which almost everyone has these days, as the "grandfathered" policies are few and far between, immunizations are covered for free at POS no matter what type of policy one has, e.g. high-deductible, platinum, silver, bronze, etc. No excuse for anyone who is insured. What about the uninsured? Well, since 1963 there has been the 317 program, now called "Vaccines for Children".
"The Vaccines For Children (VFC) program is a federally funded program that provides vaccines at no cost to children who might not otherwise be vaccinated because of inability to pay. CDC buys vaccines at a discount and distributes them to grantees—i.e., state health departments and certain local and territorial public health agencies—which in turn distribute them at no charge to those private physicians' offices and public health clinics registered as VFC providers. Children who are eligible for VFC vaccines are entitled to receive those vaccines recommended by the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP). " VFC | Home | Vaccines for Children Program | CDC
Eligibility means younger than 19 years of age and is one of the following:
Medicaid-eligible
Uninsured
Underinsured
American Indian or Alaska Native
A provider may charge an administration fee, but if the patient says they can't afford it, the fee must be waived.
Many of the same companies that make vaccines in the US make them for UHC (which is the more accurate name than "socialized medicine") countries. There is nothing in UHC that opposes drug companies making a profit on their products.
Last edited by Katarina Witt; 04-26-2016 at 03:27 PM..
In the first link: "Living organisms are constantly exposed to a broad range of environmental antigens, as exemplified by the recent re-emergence of measles virus infection among a subpopulation of Japanese young adults who were not vaccinated against the virus. We therefore conclude that systemic autoimmunity necessarily takes place when host's immune ‘system’ is overstimulated by external disturbance, i.e., repeated exposure to antigen, to the levels that surpass system's self-organized criticality, and propose here ‘self-organized criticality theory’ explaining the cause of autoimmunity."
So they are referring to any type of exposure to antigens, including via the environment. Immnuization in this case does not seem to mean only "vaccine-induced immunization".
100% vaccination rate or 80% vaccination rate, you'll be exposed to something whether it's a vpd or a non vpd. You could be exposed via a non-vaccinated kid or via a vaccinated kid.
Being vaccinated will indeed prevent exposure to vaccine preventable diseases. That is why there is no polio in the US. That is why there is no measles unless someone imports it from abroad. There is no exposure to those viruses in the US because vaccination has eliminated them here. The reason we do not have imported polio is because it has almost been eradicated, the last imported case in the US due to wild virus occurring in 1993.
Vaccines will not prevent diseases for which there are no vaccines. Really, is that not obvious?
In the first link: "Living organisms are constantly exposed to a broad range of environmental antigens, as exemplified by the recent re-emergence of measles virus infection among a subpopulation of Japanese young adults who were not vaccinated against the virus. We therefore conclude that systemic autoimmunity necessarily takes place when host's immune ‘system’ is overstimulated by external disturbance, i.e., repeated exposure to antigen, to the levels that surpass system's self-organized criticality, and propose here ‘self-organized criticality theory’ explaining the cause of autoimmunity."
So they are referring to any type of exposure to antigens, including via the environment. Immnuization in this case does not seem to mean only "vaccine-induced immunization".
Tomljenovic has published 29 studies, It's true that some of them have not been favorable to vaccines. That makes her target for the pro-vaccine machine. Anyone who speaks out about vaccines is slandered and called a quack no matter what their qualifications are. Orac, the skeptical raptor, et al are pro vaccine propaganda bloggers and are a huge part of the machine to discredit anyone and anything that is negative about vaccines. I've noticed that these blogs are used as evidence over and over and over again in these types of threads. They are not evidence. People can and should read the studies for themselves rather then relying on biased bloggers slanderous (paid) opinions.
Will you apply the same standards to those who pass sexually transmitted diseases?
Shouldn't they be held accountable as well?
Some of them are being held accountable. If they're busted for knowingly spreading HIV, they go to prison. (Where they ironically get free HIV treatment.) If it's syphilis or something less deadly, I don't think so, though.
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