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Here in CT they are having trouble filling restaurant positions because of $600 unemployment offer.
UBI makes the bottom equal,when I started work at $1.00 per hour I could look at higher pay ahead
I will never support this for one reason... I didn't get it.
I am close to retirement and I have worked hard my entire life. Suffering and scrimping and saving and worrying bout my job and health care.
And now, when i am about to retire and get social security and medicaid (my UBI) you want to institute this for the younger generation? NOT BLOODLY Likely.
Get off your couch and work like the rest of us had to.
This attitude annoys me so much. Nothing will ever change with this attitude. Change needs to start somewhere.
This attitude annoys me so much. Nothing will ever change with this attitude. Change needs to start somewhere.
Yep, blue collar jobs that would make you middle class, really havent been that numerous since the 1960s. The person you quote must have a time machine back to 1950s and 1960s. Or he expects young people to emigrate to China and Mexico to follow the jobs???? And the lower living expenses there????
As to just getting a college education, sure, watch when the computers take over those supposed "brain jobs". Or they import people from India to do it (they work cheaper) and have you train your replacement on way out.
Not enough people can think that far ahead, but society is going to change far more than it ever has in next 50 years. You saw people attacking cell towers thinking they spread corona virus. Well watch when they see all their jobs disappear, how they attack all the automated kiosks and such. I guess it will give the repairmen plenty of work if they dont get attacked too.
If the 2nd wave of COVID19 death spreads across the world, there will need to be some form of prolonged assistance before widespread looting begins. We are fortunate that we were at the longest economic boom since the last recession. Most people still have credit cards to use to get by and interest rates are low enough for people to hang on. But after 6 months most unemployed folks will be close to exhausting their credit lines and if the Gov doesn't give more assistance within 6 month there will be widespread crime and looting. Property crime is already up in NYC because many criminals have been released early and they have no job or money so they have to turn to crime. Jail was their primary residence.
Even if states or cities open for business doesn't mean people will return in droves.
Its probably the good economy up until this, that is helping prolong society being orderly...but it wont last much longer. The Govt can only promote 'false hope' for so long, until the people stop believing them.
These are the kinds of historic events that lead to Govts crumbling or falling and new ones coming in to replace them, its somewhat exciting to see if it werent so deadly and dangerous, Hopefully the next time around, we will have a completely different type of Govt!
Take the UBI Challenge: Show us the numbers. No waxing poetic, just show us the numbers.
People are big enough to talk up UBI, except when you demand to see the numbers they aren't so big after all, because they all run away with their tails between their legs.
Before I show why UBI isn't possible, it's important to examine the history of UBI briefly and to discuss the rampant propaganda and disinformation spewed by many supporters.
The US tested UBI on five different occasions. Two of those test ran concurrently for a period of 10 years.
Not 10 weeks, not 10 months, but 10 friggin' years in Denver and Seattle.
Because all 5 experiments totally failed to produce the magic miracle supporters claimed they would produce, your government opted for another form of UBI.
Which brings us to the next point, which is that UBI comes in different flavors. One such flavor is the negative income tax, which you all know as the Earned Income Tax Credit.
So, as a point of irrefutable fact, you've had UBI for nearly 40 years.
The negative income tax brings us to the Herr Josef Göbbels Worshipers United.
The Göbbels lovers insist renown economist Milton Friedman supported UBI. He did not. What he supported was the negative income tax, which you've had for almost 40 years.
The arrangement that recommends itself on purely mechanical grounds is a negative income tax.
Source: Capitalism and Freedom, Friedman, Milton, The University of Chicago Press, 1962, page 158.
Friedman opposed Universal Basic Income for the reason stated:
The advantages of this arrangement [the negative income tax] are clear. It is directed specifically at the problem of poverty. It gives help in the form most useful to the individual, namely, cash. It is general and could be substituted for the host of special measures now in effect. It makes explicit the cost borne by society. It operates outside the market. Like any other measures to alleviate poverty, it reduces the incentives of those helped to help themselves, but it does not eliminate that incentive entirely, as a system of supplementing incomes up to some fixed minimum would. An extra dollar earned always means more money available for expenditure.
[emphasis mine]
Source: Capitalism and Freedom, Friedman, Milton, The University of Chicago Press, 1962, page 158.
Sadly, even though I have just refuted any claim that Friedman supported UBI, some Göbbels-lover will make the claim again.
The propaganda and disinformation proffered by supporters of UBI is that it will replace all current forms of welfare.
It has also been claimed that the mere savings from eliminating the bureaucracy at the federal, State and county levels will pay for UBI.
Not only do those arguments fail, those arguments refuse to address the moral hazard associated with UBI, in part because their sheer contemptible hatred of children is so blatantly obvious.
First, the operand in Universal Basic Income is "Universal."
If your intent is only to provide it to certain groups of people and exclude others, then it is not universal no matter how much you protest and it doesn't matter what mantra you cloak it in, it becomes nothing more than a fantasy money transfer from the haves to the "have nots."
Second, including federal, State and county benefits, many get more than $5,000/month.
Those people may be dumb, but they are not so stupid as to trade $5,000/month for $1,000/month no matter how high in hand Liberals proudly hold the UBI banner and wave it around.
Likewise, I know of no one willing to trade $2,500/month in Social Security benefits of any kind for $1,000/month.
Third, we need to address the moral hazard.
About 20% of EBT card-holders engage in fraud. They trade their EBT card benefits for cash so that they can purchase alcohol, drugs, tobacco, gamble or satisfy some infantile urge, like getting a butt-ugly tattoo or acquiring large amounts of Bling-Bling.
Those kids are already eating potato chips and Diet-Coke for the only meal they get each day.
And, you want to give those parents cash?
Yeah, that's real smart, but, hey, if you hate children, who cares, right?
The other 80% would probably engage in fraud, except they fear losing their benefits, so they don't.
And, you want to give those parents cash?
HUD, State, county and municipal housing authorities pay rent.
A friend lives in HUD housing. Fair market value is $400/month, but HUD says the owners can charge $750/month based on some magical formula crafted by an enchanted unicorn.
Those people pay 1/3rd of their income, so their rent payment could be anywhere from $Free to $310/month.
The housing agency pays the rest.
Those people are in tax-payer funded housing, because they are financially irresponsible, so why would you give them cash?
Giving irresponsible people cash does not make them responsible, but it does give them mo' money to be irresponsible with.
So, you give them cash, that money is burning a hole in their pocket, they're on fire and they're gonna blow that money.
Then, when it comes time to pay the rent, they ain't got no money.
Then they're going to be evicted and homeless.
Then the Liberal mantra will be to pony up mo' money to help them out of their predicament and only now will Liberals scream, "Homeless Children!"
So, if children have only potato chips and coke and suffer health problems and behavioral problems and poor academic performance due to poor diet, and leading to low earning potential, that's okay, but children being homeless is a major sin.
Finally, since UBI supporters blatantly refuse to address the financing issue, let's address that now.
262+ Million adult Americans.
$2,500 per adult per month.
$2,500 * 262,000,000 = $655,000,000,000 or $655 Billion per month
$655 Billion * 12 months = $7,860,000,000,000 or $7.86 TRILLION per year.
From where will that $7.86 TRILLION come? Bueller....Bueller....Anyone?
Taxes? Nope. There is no amount of taxation that will cover that.
Tax wealth? Sure, just as soon as you get 38 States to ratify a constitutional amendment allowing the government to tax wealth (wealth is not income).
I'm sure you'll get the necessary 38 States by the year 2372.
Don't give UBI to the rich? Well, then it wouldn't be Universal Basic Income. It doesn't matter. Remember, the "rich? are only 1%.
Let's recalculate.
259,380,000 * $2,500/month = $648,450,000,000 or $648 Billion
$648 Billion * 12 = $7,781,400,000,000 or $7.78 TRILLION
I'm not really seeing a lot of difference between $7.78 TRILLION and $7.86 TRILLION.
Suppose we just kept everything in place and gave everyone $1,000/month?
262,000,000 * $1,000/month = $262,000,000,000 or $262 Billion per month.
$262 Billion * 12 = $3,144,000,000,000 or $3.14 TRILLION.
It's less, but there is no level of taxation that would ever generate that amount.
You currently generate about $3.5 TRILLION from all sources of federal tax revenues, including income tax, corporate tax, capital gains tax, inheritance tax, and tariffs, imports and duties and excise taxes.
Tax corporations!
Even if you made corporations pay their "fair share" the best case scenario is maybe another $500 Billion on a damn good day.
However, note that another $500 Billion would not solve the problem it would only lower your annual budget deficit and cause the federal debt to grow slower.
Tax the rich!
That's peanuts. Remember that forcing the rich to pay FICA taxes on all their income only generates $62 Billion.
Raise taxes to 90%!
Taxes were never 90%.
Never meaning "at no time ever."
There was a tax bracket at 90%.
If you don't understand the difference, you probably need to learn.
The equivalent today would be 90% of everything over $50 Million.
Do you have any idea how many people earn more than $50 Million? It's like 27 people.
To give you the benefit of the doubt, let's assume they all made $100 Million, so you get $12,150,00,000.
Yeah, that's $12.2 Billion.
That is not going to pay for UBI.
The whole point of this exercise is that if you cannot figure out how to pay for it, then there's no point in discussing it, because it's just an LSD-induced hallucinogenic fantasy.
Also - Finland abandoned it's UBI experiment after two years....why???
Here in CT they are having trouble filling restaurant positions because of $600 unemployment offer.
UBI makes the bottom equal,when I started work at $1.00 per hour I could look at higher pay ahead
I remember the days a good wage was $2 per hour. Thing is low end rent wasnt $1200+ per month back then. I remember in those days you could rent an old farm house for $15 a month. So you want to pay somebody $1 an hour today, are you offering rental houses for $15 a month? Its all relative, you want insanely low wages, you gotta unwind cost of living to equal what it was back then. People dont live on the air in Cincinnati or anywhere else....
I remember the days a good wage was $2 per hour. Thing is low end rent wasnt $1200+ per month back then. I remember in those days you could rent an old farm house for $15 a month. So you want to pay somebody $1 an hour today, are you offering rental houses for $15 a month? Its all relative, you want insanely low wages, you gotta unwind cost of living to equal what it was back then. People dont live on the air in Cincinnati or anywhere else....
As the song goes... "Times, they are a changing!"
I really don't think that's what DanBev was suggesting. I think it was more around motivation. Motivation to achieve more. Seeing greener pastures and a path to get to them.
I think it was more around motivation. Motivation to achieve more.
Seeing greener pastures and a path to get to them.
If only that were so. It's about the numbers... we have too many people generally.
Far more than are needed to do the work that really needs doing (in any sort of job)
but especially so at the lower levels of employment which keeps the labor value of their time low.
Yes, society needs to take responsibility for having encouraged their existence
but their existence alone is not reason alone to pay them merely to be.
Takes darn few people to program the robots. They arent made to need frequent babysitting. Some writer went on tour of a Ford plant in recent years. His father had been a worker there. He was shocked to see how few workers were needed. The guy giving him the tour told him he should tour some auto factories in Europe that needed far fewer people yet.
You are also ignoring fact that not everybody is mentally capable of doing the high tech stuff. Those old factories, if you could show up on time and put tab A into slot B over and over again, bingo, you could live a middle class lifestyle. Now those folk trying to live on part time McD service job. It aint middle class. And the need for white collar "educated" will be shrinking too. So who are you going to sell all this stuff to? The robots dont buy anything, they are owned slaves that need no time off. The 1% sure isnt going to buy all the stuff produced.
See this is something Henry Ford figured out over a century ago, you need to pay your employees enough to buy the product you are selling. Eliminating labor in your plant means you think you are only one doing it, and workers in other plants will buy your product. However if all those other workers are eliminated through automation..... how smart is automating then? Are humans supposed to just take in each others laundry and eat at each other's hole in wall restaurants?
Exactly.
I don't even get the part where "learn to code" is taken seriously.
Heck I was an above average student but when it came to STEM, nope. First "C" I ever got, I was mortified and this was an intro course. It was also very dull to me so I could not stay focused. Now take your average to below average IQ, low attention span dude or dude-ess who doesn't even care and magically make them into a programmer? When you have thirsty H1Bs lining up to work for peanuts and ever expanding technology such that many fewer coders will be even needed.
We have to face realities and get with the program, the numbers don't work. We have eliminated viable employment for large numbers of people, and continue to do so with no realistic plan.
I will never support this for one reason... I didn't get it.
I am close to retirement and I have worked hard my entire life. Suffering and scrimping and saving and worrying bout my job and health care.
And now, when i am about to retire and get social security and medicaid (my UBI) you want to institute this for the younger generation? NOT BLOODLY Likely.
Get off your couch and work like the rest of us had to.
So should we also not try to find a cure for cancer? Because after all, that would be unfair to everyone that already died, right? Suck it up and die, like all those other people did, right?
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