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It's only relatively recently, 10 years maybe, that I came to understand the extent of the TG issue, via both work and social.There are certainly a lot more MtF out there than I would have thought. Can't speak to FtM.
The Very Woman is a school system official and tells me that all the fuss you hear about school bathroom issues comes from adults. The kids are cool with it.
On the biological vs psychological issue, I think it's likely an all of the above matter. Who hasn't seen an effeminate man, gay or otherwise, and thought they probably would have had an easier life as a woman?
I've always wondered about the regret issue. The two MtF' that I know had hormone therapy in their early and late twenties, about 20 years ago, and both say they wished they had done it earlier. So no regrets there.
I agree with the child, parents, physician approach, and as noted puberty blockers, to buy more time for consideration, if desired or needed. I try never to be influenced by proselytizers of any stripe who seek to reduce individual or collective freedoms. They usually represent the fringes, (anti gun lobby excluded). Adding freedoms tends to be less controversial. I guess I'm a permissive liberal.
I really don't give a hoot myself who someone wants to identify as, providing they don't get in my face about it.
Unfortunately, as with so many other controversies, the Devil is in the Details, and I have great sympathy for parents who don't want their teenage daughters to have to share a shower room with a pre-surgery M-t-F, for instance. I'm also not a fan of those who shriek "A woman with a penis is still a woman!", and condemn me as a "phobe" for not wanting to date them - I mean, seriously?
And sports? Having a person who's gone through puberty as a male, with all that extra muscle mass, bone density, etc. who now identifies as a woman, being able to enter and compete with XX chromosome females (as found in 99-plus percent of the human female population, in case someone can point to an exception) in sports like MMA, weightlifting, etc., wins the award for insanity dressed up as good intentions, unless your intention is to destroy years of work in building up and promoting women's sports. I don't know what the solution to that is, maybe an "other" category in sporting events.
The way I see it, there are a "lot" of people who feel (often, very strongly), that their biological / anatomical sex does not align with their "emotional" sexual identity (i.e., best described today as "gender"?)
I'm not looking to minimalize the feelings of these people, I can only imagine it may be a really Hellish condition to endure. But, rather than assuming that the problem is "biological" in nature, wouldn't it be equally fair to assume there is a psychological problem at the root? Until maybe twenty or thirty years ago, psychiatrists believed that gender dysphoria was a mental disorder, correct? Was this former theory refuted on a scientific basis, or was it changed in the DSM manuals because the issue was "unsolvable" with available psychiatric methods?
Psychiatry is, I assume, still in its infancy in regard to other medical specialties. Bottom line, are we doing hormone suppression and sex-reassignment surgeries simply because we don't fully understand brain chemistry? (and one day, perhaps prescribing drugs that make up for some hormone that wasn't delivered at some stage during gestation). To me, that's what is pointed to by the relatively high "regret rate" evidenced by elnina. My own guess is, we are going to find out some day that when sex is assigned during fertilization (although it isn't fully defined until later in gestation), the brain is supplied with some chemical that makes it "line up" with the chromosomes. For those with gender dysphoria, that chemical wasn't supplied, and therefore, the conflict arises.
WELL SAID.
My Husband had a few patients that carried this distorted View of themselves(dysmorphia): "Body dysmorphic disorder is a mental health disorder in which you can't stop thinking about one or more perceived defects or flaws in your appearance — a flaw that appears minor or can't be seen by others. But you may feel so embarrassed, ashamed and anxious that you may avoid many social situations"
. . I say distorted because their Mind and visual played tricks on them Some were repulsed. When asked to Draw what they saw, they inevitably drew disfigurements that were not there or they excluded parts of themselves ( body ) that they wanted to disassociate with. Do I think people are ultimately born one gender and wish to seek something "different" contingent on the "Tribal" rules. Yes enveritably I do. I recall this ebbing its way into our current culture and most of its the LETS ACCEPT EVERYTHING mantra! Its ALL okay. As earlier recited I do think the influence adults have on growing minds can empower , support or do more harm. This anything goes is part of that "empowerment" gone awry.
I sincerely consider it more a psychological malady then this pure physical . As to treatment for it, I would spare the scalpel and ease into re-aligning their reality.
I’m all about grown adults doing whatever it is they want to themselves. When the focus is not on the transgendered person and what they are going through, but on everyone else, that’s where I think we need to be more careful.
Blaming high rates of depression and suicide on what other people think and if we think they are “accepting” enough is a cop out. Everyone deals with acceptance. I’m all for being tough on prejudice, discrimination, and bullying. However, being depressed because people around me don’t celebrate my sexual orientation or gender identity sounds more like a problem with that individual than with society.
The bathroom fix is an easy one, just put a single-person, gender-neutral bathroom. However, when do complaints role in that there are not enough gender-neutral bathrooms in a school and that the allocation for those facilities should be equal? I guess we could just have a bathroom that says penis, and another that says vagina, and just take away the labels of boy/girl. Then you don’t have to identify as anything, just look down your pants and see what you currently are equipped with.
Qoute: "Back in 2020, people already knew that with proper encouragement and support, the vast majority of kids – more than 80% – became content with their biological gender by the time they reached 18." I don't believe this claim for a minute. Transgender people cannot be "talked" out of their feelings of being the opposite sex. It's like being gay. Parents cannot undo homosexual feelings in their children. They cannot convince their male children to feel male if they do not, or female children to feel female. I am friends and acquaintances with three transgender people. They felt that way for years and years and those feelings never changed. Some undergo reassignment; others don't. It's too expensive. But they were never able to feel their assigned sex. The feeling of gender occurs in the brain, not the genitals. Besides, why on earth would someone choose to be transgender? They wouldn't. There is too much stigma and discrimination against transgender people. They would never choose it. Perhaps in rare instances people change their mind, but that's unusual indeed.
Qoute: "Back in 2020, people already knew that with proper encouragement and support, the vast majority of kids – more than 80% – became content with their biological gender by the time they reached 18." I don't believe this claim for a minute. Transgender people cannot be "talked" out of their feelings of being the opposite sex. It's like being gay. Parents cannot undo homosexual feelings in their children. They cannot convince their male children to feel male if they do not, or female children to feel female. I am friends and acquaintances with three transgender people. They felt that way for years and years and those feelings never changed. Some undergo reassignment; others don't. It's too expensive. But they were never able to feel their assigned sex. The feeling of gender occurs in the brain, not the genitals. Besides, why on earth would someone choose to be transgender? They wouldn't. There is too much stigma and discrimination against transgender people. They would never choose it. Perhaps in rare instances people change their mind, but that's unusual indeed.
I don't think that transgender celebrities such as Caitlyn Jenner or Chaz Bono experience stigma and discrimination to the same extent as most other transgender people do. But most transgender people don't have access to the kind of resources that can make them look glamorous for the cover of Vanity Fair (like Jenner), or get them an appearance on Dancing with the Stars (like Bono).
Sex reassignment isn't a new thing -- some old-timers may remember Christine Jorgensen from the 1950s. I have no doubt that there have been and still are people who have found better lives for themselves after having undergone sex reassignment.
However, I also wonder how much our society's rewards of status to those who manage to stay the longest in the public eye, either on YouTube or in the news (and I'm often asking myself: "Why are the Jenners a 'thing'?"), might have contributed to a larger than expected number of impressionable adults and children deciding that they must be transgender, too? Perhaps these are the ones who eventually regret what they have chosen for themselves.
I don't think anything should be done with kids except helping them accept themselves as is, as they were born. Most have other issues going on like autism or emotional problems and that's all that anyone should be focused on. If they later, as adults, decide to go down the trans path that's their choice but let's not encourage it or encourage bad parenting. Watch your troubled teen online too, that's where most pick up on the idea in the first place. And stop "celebrating" it. It's nothing to celebrate, it's just a personal struggle someone is facing, let it stay that way.
Understand that nobody can actually change their sex/gender. Men can present as women but they are just a different kind of man. Women can present as men but they are just a different kind of woman. You know, society probably would have been able to adjust to that if things had stopped there instead of going off the cliff and trying to insist that these people actually DID CHANGE THEIR SEX/GENDER, or worse, have ALWAYS BEEN THE NEW SEX/GENDER. Don't tell me a man got pregnant, no man ever will get pregnant. When you <bleep> around with language and try to force the absurd onto people they will reject it whole cloth because you come across as completely insane and that's what we are up against at the moment.
Last edited by Rachel NewYork; 12-04-2020 at 11:12 AM..
Reason: Please -- no profanity. Thank you.
I don't think that transgender celebrities such as Caitlyn Jenner or Chaz Bono experience stigma and discrimination to the same extent as most other transgender people do. But most transgender people don't have access to the kind of resources that can make them look glamorous for the cover of Vanity Fair (like Jenner), or get them an appearance on Dancing with the Stars (like Bono).
Sex reassignment isn't a new thing -- some old-timers may remember Christine Jorgensen from the 1950s. I have no doubt that there have been and still are people who have found better lives for themselves after having undergone sex reassignment.
However, I also wonder how much our society's rewards of status to those who manage to stay the longest in the public eye, either on YouTube or in the news (and I'm often asking myself: "Why are the Jenners a 'thing'?"), might have contributed to a larger than expected number of impressionable adults and children deciding that they must be transgender, too? Perhaps these are the ones who eventually regret what they have chosen for themselves.
The problem you've outlined in your last graph, is not confined to the issue of this discussion. It applies across a wide section of current culture, and is driven by "what sells".
I don't think anything should be done with kids except helping them accept themselves as is, as they were born. Most have other issues going on like autism or emotional problems and that's all that anyone should be focused on. If they later, as adults, decide to go down the trans path that's their choice but let's not encourage it or encourage bad parenting. Watch your troubled teen online too, that's where most pick up on the idea in the first place. And stop "celebrating" it. It's nothing to celebrate, it's just a personal struggle someone is facing, let it stay that way.
Understand that nobody can actually change their sex/gender. Men can present as women but they are just a different kind of man. Women can present as men but they are just a different kind of woman. You know, society probably would have been able to adjust to that if things had stopped there instead of going off the cliff and trying to insist that these people actually DID CHANGE THEIR SEX/GENDER, or worse, have ALWAYS BEEN THE NEW SEX/GENDER. Don't tell me a man got pregnant, no man ever will get pregnant. When you <bleep> around with language and try to force the absurd onto people they will reject it whole cloth because you come across as completely insane and that's what we are up against at the moment.
I find your Autism claim astounding. Do you have any evidence in support?
Has anyone ever claimed that a man got pregnant, and provided evidence in support?
I don't have the impression that TG' are looking for society to "celebrate" their decisions. I think all that most are looking for is acceptance, just like the rest of us. Sure, there will always be some who are too in your face, but I don't think they are the majority.
I find your Autism claim astounding. Do you have any evidence in support?
Has anyone ever claimed that a man got pregnant, and provided evidence in support?
I don't have the impression that TG' are looking for society to "celebrate" their decisions. I think all that most are looking for is acceptance, just like the rest of us. Sure, there will always be some who are too in your face, but I don't think they are the majority.
There have been several cases documented where a "man" has given birth, but that kind of depends on whether you consider a F-M trans individual (who kept their female reproductive parts) fits the definition of a man or not. Other than that, the only one I know of is Arnold, but that was Hollywood. I was going to report this as an "already happened", but I looked it up and it is "predicted" that biological males will one day be able to carry a fertilized egg through birth. https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/surg...80%99d%20think.
To me, the biggest problem centers around whether minors should be allowed to transition without the approval of their parents. I may be in the minority, but I see a similar problem with abortions, tattoos, plastic surgery, etc.. Adults need to be guided by their own free will, and hopefully, medical advice. "Acceptance" is a different issue; I would agree that everyone deserves to be treated with a base level of respect in polite society, but to demand that no one raise an eyebrow should The Rock transition to female tomorrow, may be a bit too much to ask. Someone sent me an email several years ago with a photo of a cute beagle puppy, captioned with "Bruce Jenner's cat" underneath - I'm ashamed to say I busted a gut at it. So anyway, full acceptance may be a ways off.
Again, the problem appears to be a disconnect between one's biological sex, and what the affected individual's brain is telling them their sex or gender "should" be. What I don't understand, is whether it is a "brain" problem, or a "biology" problem. For example, if a doctor were presented with a patient who was absolutely, positively sure that they were Napoleon Bonaparte, I don't think the proper course of treatment would be to give them a commission as a General in the French army. But on the other hand, many people have made the transition, and feel very good about their decision for the rest of their lives. So, who would I be to deny of them of a happy and peaceful life?
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