Misogyny and its cause. (Australia, murder, employees, female)
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To me this has always struck me as fairly ideological discussion that can't really be reduced to laboratory style "scientific" analysis.
I suspect the historical roots have to do with the fact that: 1) men are (on average) more physically stronger and 2) women traditionally spent a good chunk of their prime adult life pregnant or breastfeeding.
That lead to position where men were in the dominant social position. Today those factors are generally less relevant and the relative status of men and women is gradually equalizing. But, social norms/patterns change slowly. Taller men earn more and are more likely to be in leadership positions than shorter men, even though there isn't a clear reason why physical stature should matter?
Today the opportunity differences within gender almost certainly exceed opportunities across gender. Woman born to an upper class family almost certainly has more social opportunities than a man born to a working class family. But, women still face lots of unique burdens.
All that being said, I know very little about this area and would gladly revise my views.
Misogyny at the highest level, the US Supreme Court.
Female justices are interrupted far more than male justices so they changed a rule to prevent it.
This is a place where body strength and physical size is not important but social algorithms still rule.
Misogyny at the highest level, the US Supreme Court.
Female justices are interrupted far more than male justices so they changed a rule to prevent it.
This is a place where body strength and physical size is not important but social algorithms still rule.
Interesting study link. It would be interesting to see it updated to reflect the new justices.
On the "social algorithms" I think the question is what created the social algorithms?
I think that is where the strength argument comes into play for why men have traditionally been the more powerful gender. At an extreme level, it seems harder for a female Taliban to enforce it's will over men than vice versa.
Spot on.
The argument in some posts recently that men are stronger physically and do a lot of manual work is so off base on this thread. Who is stronger is not the question. Why does misogyny exist is.
I don't believe women want anything that men have either, other than being valued for what they bring to the table, be it motherhood, caring for children and the elderly, teaching, research, law, technology, medicine, whatever. Women excel but do not get the recognition, or the money, they deserve. I wonder what men want that women have. That is the key to the misogyny, the fear and hatred.
As Sonic said, some men want what women have in terms of sexual attention. I have no doubt that much of that attention is awkward at best and dangerous in some cases. The men who can't see the downside are likely blinded by the fact that the attention women get would be less threatening to those men. They also imagine that most of the women approaching them in this Sadie Hawkins universe would be attractive to them, which of course wouldn't be the case.
I also think men's thoughts are informed by the general trajectory of men's and women's lives. For at least a generation boys have lagged behind girls (and boys of earlier generations) in most areas of academic achievement all the way through college attendance and particularly in high prestige and high earning disciplines like medicine and law.
You said something above about women wanting to be valued for what they bring to the table. I think the last 60 years we (media, academia, culture in general) have assailed what men traditionally bring to the table, without providing any clear and viable alternatives. In many cases we've told men and most tragically boys what not to do and who not to be without guiding them toward something better.
You said something above about women wanting to be valued for what they bring to the table. I think the last 60 years we (media, academia, culture in general) have assailed what men traditionally bring to the table, without providing any clear and viable alternatives. In many cases we've told men and most tragically boys what not to do and who not to be without guiding them toward something better.
We can and need to do better than that.
I have had men voice to me the opinion that getting sex is so much easier for women. That men have to do all the work both in chasing and in bed. I thought that was funny. But this could be also real envy and hatred, that women get for free that which they have to work for. Blaming women for that is irrational and dishonest.
How did we assail men and for what? Can you clarify?
I am puzzled by this complaint in some posts about men being derided for being stay at home dads. That has become so common now i dont think anybody blinks. Couples mostly split their responsibilities if both work, there are no more gender roles. I think many men have benefitted this by getting closer to their kids, cooking meals, taking care of babies. This should entirely credited to the womens’s movement that dismantled gender roles.
I have had men voice to me the opinion that getting sex is so much easier for women. That men have to do all the work both in chasing and in bed. I thought that was funny. But this could be also real envy and hatred, that women get for free that which they have to work for. Blaming women for that is irrational and dishonest.
How did we assail men and for what? Can you clarify?
I am puzzled by this complaint in some posts about men being derided for being stay at home dads. That has become so common now i dont think anybody blinks. Couples mostly split their responsibilities if both work, there are no more gender roles. I think many men have benefitted this by getting closer to their kids, cooking meals, taking care of babies. This should entirely credited to the womens’s movement that dismantled gender roles.
Do you really think gender roles are dismantled? I don't see that anywhere. People step outside those roles more often than in the past, but they're hardly dismantled. That's like saying your house is gone when you step out the front door. Like the house, the gender role structure is still there to retreat to when it suits us and to be guided back into when it suits others.
What was assailed was the traditional way men lived. In a lot of aspects those traditions were ripe for being assailed. The real issue was that we didn't do a good job of suggesting replacement behaviors. That you don't think anyone blinks when a man stays home to care for his children could be a problem with your perception rather than an accurate accounting of how men stepping outside some still prescribed roles are treated.
Then regarding sex, can you clarify? I'll grant that blaming women for the typical sexual dynamics is misguided, but how is it dishonest?
this is small issue compared to the stuff we've been talking about but for me I've tried to use some of these dating apps. I thought because I don't know many people where I'm living now and because of the pandemic keeping me from wanting to go out to crowded events it would be a good way to meet a potential dates.
However it was a rude awakening for me because basically don't get any matches on there lol even when I swipe right on every single profile.. and if I do get an occasional one the will just about give one word answers to everything and stop talking as soon as I asked to meet up or to do a video chat.
Maybe because I'm on the shorter side and that's listed in my profile, or maybe just women have more options on there.. I've been reasonable successful with meeting women IRL in the past and decent conversationalist so I guess I thought it would work for me. So that apps experience has been really humbling, borderling demoralizing when I see how many matches many of the girls and the few very handsome men get on there
I've just finished listening to a podcast on what the attention to the Gabby Petito case has done to shine the spotlight on domestic abuse, particularly for women of color. The moderator made the point that, to take the comprehensive view, domestic violence against women is the largest human rights violation in the world. In undeveloped nations up to fifty percent of women have been the subject of domestic violence.
Think of all the different cultures all with the same inclination toward women when not restrained by social mores. Notice how little Western mores do to prevent it. I am absolutely convinced that this is more than a psycho-social problem. Through the ages and across cultural barriers it has been so persistent that there has to be some inherent biological inclination.
The implications for that premise may be playing out in the attempt to "tame the male ego" in today's western culture. And it's not working. Neither in preventing abuse or in improving man's role in or his adjustment to society.
And possible solutions seem grotesque when viewed through that lens.
Something I found interesting is that the current women's 10km world record is faster than the historical men's 10km world record up until the 1950s. Now there are reasons for that (drugs, better shoes, better tracks) but all in all women seem to be closer to men in distance running at the elite level than in some other physical capacities.
I've heard from track coaches for whatever reason there seems to be a bigger gap between ELITE women and well trained average women distance runners than ELITE male and well trained average men.Not sure of the validity of that
I am also interested what makes your wife says women are better at coding than men? I don't doubt the validity, just curious about the specifics there.
I read/saw a graphic somewhere that compared men and women across a large number of timed Olympic events. The men's WR and women's WR were tightly spaced around 10% apart.
I failed to mention one of the most significant diffidence between men and women.......men have significantly more hemoglobin per blood volume....around 11-13% IIRC.
I'll ask my wife about her coding posit tonight. She has said that it's a common thought among IT executives.
Spot on.
The argument in some posts recently that men are stronger physically and do a lot of manual work is so off base on this thread. Who is stronger is not the question. Why does misogyny exist is.
I don't believe women want anything that men have either, other than being valued for what they bring to the table, be it motherhood, caring for children and the elderly, teaching, research, law, technology, medicine, whatever. Women excel but do not get the recognition, or the money, they deserve.
I wonder what men want that women have. That is the key to the misogyny, the fear and hatred.
The history of our strength difference is vitally important.
You brought up rape. If men and women were more equal in terms of physical strength rape, of the type and kind you mention, would occur far less often. So axiomatically it matters.
For thousands of years at least men have been more responsible for dangerous work, war, home defense, hunting etc. I'd argue that is because men are stronger, less empathetic, more black and white thinkers, more competative etc. Genetic make up and testosterone are big players..........
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When hours worked are accounted for and seniority metrics are even, job per job men and women make almost identical money.
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You keep mentioning men, fear and hatred of women as if some large proportion of men fear and hate women. That's nonsense. It may be, however, that many rapists fear and hate women
Last edited by EDS_; 10-14-2021 at 01:26 PM..
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