Misogyny and its cause. (drugs, how much, bias, examples)
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Misogyny is rooted in the fact that this is a Patriarchal society. Why patriarchal societies are more prevalent than matriarchal ones is something I wonder about. Maybe it came about because in early hunter-gatherer tribes, men put their lives on the line to hunt large animals to feed the tribe and they became more aggressive as a result. Maybe it came about so that men could control who were and weren't able to have children, and to prevent every male in an a tribe from killing each other so that there was only a couple left to father children.
As far as why Misogyny still exists today, when none of the ^ above are conditions anybody is living under, I think it comes down to entitlement and a lack of willingness to share power. The same goes for the root causes of racism.
A book called "The Garbage Generation" explains why patriarchal societies lead to stable civilizations, while matriarchy leads to inner-city ghettos, Indian reservations, etc.:
I hate labels too. All too often the use of labels polarizes people
IMO, men who fear, mistrust or hate women are projecting their feelings about themselves onto a gender as a matter of ego protection(?) or some other psychological difficulty.
And there are many ways this misogyny manifests. Many, many men are violent towards women. Men killing former wives or partners is quite common. When this happens, there is often a history of violent abuse. This is such a common thing and society seems not to be able to find a way to protect the affected women and children.
I do recognize that some women kill men. But what we more often see, is men killing women as an escalation of domestic violence or as predatory behavior.
Actually, I believe that a study I once made of the Bureau of Justice Statistics revealed that while men are most often the perpetrators of violent crime, they are also most often the victims of it. That of course does not cover intimate partner violence or domestic violence specifically.... But it also makes the point that in bringing up our boys to believe that might makes right and violence must be the solution to their problems, that anger is the only feeling they may display, and other of these kinds of things, and in the ongoing generational passing down of violence...this harms not only women, but men as well. They harm, and they are harmed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008
I had never heard of toxic masculinity before this but i think that describes the problem most accurately.
Proving rape is hard, but the pursuit of sex from women as if it is an entitlement is the very cause of rape. Yet women bear the burden of proof. In Pakistan women who have no proof (3 witnesses) can be jailed for false accusation. We don’t do that here, but the proof required is just as misogynistic. I agree it is a difficult situation but sensitivity to the term used to describe exactly the situation women face is hardly the problem we face. It defines the problem and the solution is in educating men about rape culture, not better PR.
The PR problem is a political problem, and words are only words. This is why I prefer to dig into the ideas at hand.
If we TALK to one another, people often find a lot of common ground, no matter how certain powers wish to keep us divided and in conflict. Most people just want to live a decent life. Most people don't want to harm others, and do not wish to be harmed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lycanmaster
A book called "The Garbage Generation" explains why patriarchal societies lead to stable civilizations, while matriarchy leads to inner-city ghettos, Indian reservations, etc.:
One of the major theses of the book is that every time a society has given women more freedom and "equality", it collapsed shortly thereafter.
Other researchers/anthropologists have made similar claims.
Considering what's happening in the US and the West in general, that is some pretty ominous signs
That's ridiculous and I'm not going to even humor your link if it is there to back such a bonkers statement. Matriarchy did not lead to ghettos or Native reservations. Those are both populations deprived of equal access to resources and equal protections under law, deliberately, by the governmental entities throughout the history of this nation, and both are victims of a patriarchal power structure.
It is more that matriarchal figures often arise in times of hardship, doing what they must to try and support their families no matter the cost. When trauma is your entire life, nurture and care become all the more valuable. But it's not as though even the strongest of the women in those societies is in a position of power to completely overhaul her lot in life or her family's prospects.
Society is not better or stronger because of misogyny.
(I did Google the link in order to ascertain what manner of source this is. FYI to others, it is an anti-feminism Catholic site.)
The PR problem is a political problem, and words are only words. This is why I prefer to dig into the ideas at hand.
If we TALK to one another, people often find a lot of common ground, no matter how certain powers wish to keep us divided and in conflict. Most people just want to live a decent life. Most people don't want to harm others, and do not wish to be harmed.
I dont know what the data is on that but most people are not misogynists. Certainly 1/2 the population is not and i do not not buy the women can be misogynist argument. Misogyny in positions of power that executes it and preserves systemic ,isogyny is the problem
Unfortunately talking has not changed minds much particularly when there are strong forces to gaslight and silence the concerns expressed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
That's ridiculous and I'm not going to even humor your link if it is there to back such a bonkers statement. Matriarchy did not lead to ghettos or Native reservations. Those are both populations deprived of equal access to resources and equal protections under law, deliberately, by the governmental entities throughout the history of this nation, and both are victims of a patriarchal power structure. )
It is more that matriarchal figures often arise in times of hardship, doing what they must to try and support their families no matter the cost. When trauma is your entire life, nurture and care become all the more valuable. But it's not as though even the strongest of the women in those societies is in a position of power to completely overhaul her lot in life or her family's prospects.
Society is not better or stronger because of misogyny.
(I did Google the link in order to ascertain what manner of source this is. FYI to others, it is an anti-feminism Catholic site.)
The devadasis in India, before victorian morals shut them down, were matriarchal society. They were artists and courtesans and they commanded a status inn society. They owned property which went to the daughters. They were the guardians of a rich culture of dance, music and literature.
Actually, I believe that a study I once made of the Bureau of Justice Statistics revealed that while men are most often the perpetrators of violent crime, they are also most often the victims of it. That of course does not cover intimate partner violence or domestic violence specifically.... But it also makes the point that in bringing up our boys to believe that might makes right and violence must be the solution to their problems, that anger is the only feeling they may display, and other of these kinds of things, and in the ongoing generational passing down of violence...this harms not only women, but men as well. They harm, and they are harmed.
The PR problem is a political problem, and words are only words. This is why I prefer to dig into the ideas at hand.
If we TALK to one another, people often find a lot of common ground, no matter how certain powers wish to keep us divided and in conflict. Most people just want to live a decent life. Most people don't want to harm others, and do not wish to be harmed.
That's ridiculous and I'm not going to even humor your link if it is there to back such a bonkers statement. Matriarchy did not lead to ghettos or Native reservations. Those are both populations deprived of equal access to resources and equal protections under law, deliberately, by the governmental entities throughout the history of this nation, and both are victims of a patriarchal power structure.
It is more that matriarchal figures often arise in times of hardship, doing what they must to try and support their families no matter the cost. When trauma is your entire life, nurture and care become all the more valuable. But it's not as though even the strongest of the women in those societies is in a position of power to completely overhaul her lot in life or her family's prospects.
Society is not better or stronger because of misogyny.
(I did Google the link in order to ascertain what manner of source this is. FYI to others, it is an anti-feminism Catholic site.)
So, I gather that instead of gathering data and looking at what it might reveal, it takes a viewpoint and tries to find evidence to support it.
In strongly patriarchal societies with bias against women, fully 1/2 of the human population are, to an extent, enslaved. Think of that. Half the population is subservient to the other half.
So, I gather that instead of gathering data and looking at what it might reveal, it takes a viewpoint and tries to find evidence to support it.
In strongly patriarchal societies with bias against women, fully 1/2 of the human population are, to an extent, enslaved. Think of that. Half the population is subservient to the other half.
You mean the link? Yeah, I believe so.
Otherwise, I'm not sure what you are replying to here?
I've been trying to make a point that it is valuable to work on social changes that make life better for everyone. I recognize that both men and women in my own society (American) have struggles, and personally, much as most feminists I know actually want better lives for men too, I want to advocate for ideologies that lift everyone up. I believe that misogyny, while the most obvious victims are women, causes harm to men, too. As do many traditionally patriarchal values.
It is a structure in which there are very few winners, and very many losers, in my opinion. Aside from just the women being under the heel of the men, many men are under the heels of more powerful men. It harms our rights to basic dignity and respect, and keeps men stuck in defensive postures way too much of the time, afraid to have a moment's vulnerability or humanity.
I do not just care about myself and other women, I care about all of us.
So if, for instance, I am discussing rape culture with a man, I'm not going to necessarily focus on the fact that men are usually the perpetrators and women the victims of sexual misconduct and sexual violence, even though that is true as far as we know (reporting being incomplete and inconsistent at best.) I'm going to focus instead on changing our perceptions and practices regarding consent, and drawing a line at violating consent. I have found if I am able to frame things in a way that feels FAIR and is meant to protect and dignify EVERYONE, I get a lot less resistance. And I think that a lot of men feel very personally attacked by some of the more "gender war" flavored talk on the subject. Also, I don't like framing things in terms of strict binary, as I know a great many trans and non binary people. Their rights matter to me, as well.
In other countries and more traditional societies, women suffer a lot more. But that's an area for me to listen, not to speak, as I've never lived in one.
(EDIT: Though it seems obvious, that an ethnic group whose present living situation has its roots in slavery or genocide, is not suffering the problems they have today because of "matriarchy causing social decay" or any such nonsense.)
Here in America, we elected a President who was recorded talking about how being a big shot star means he can just go up and move on and kiss and grope women without even asking. Doing those kinds of things without someone's permission (consent) is...what? Then later, well, it's locker room talk...men just do that. We were told.
And we looked around and our fellow Americans were enthusiastically cheering this man on, wearing his merch, like big freaking fans of him. They still rabidly defend him, send money to him...
So don't tell me that there's no such thing, or that men never tell rape jokes (I've heard them, so yes they do...) and that all this is just somebody's imagination. The fact that he got elected basically made a lot of women in this country (I know you don't live here) look around and feel like half of our citizens think that rape is a hilarious joke, and no big deal.
I also point out that when I was growing up (I am in my early 40s) there was a VERY common concept in TV in film, where a man and woman meet, she doesn't like him and rejects him, but he doesn't give up...he stalks her, he harasses her (though of course it's called "winning her over") until she gives in. In other words, the hero gets the girl...she must say no at first, because she's a good girl, but he must push past her resistance! (No means yes...no means try harder.)
Rape is not always some stranger in a ski mask jumping out of an alley.
And unfortunately, the most common kinds of rape are very difficult to have solid evidence of, and to get justice for. You may prove that sex happened, but how do you prove that there was no consent? That there was no cause for a "reasonable person" to believe that he had consent? It goes beyond even he said/she said, to "what was in his mind? What was in hers?" How do you prove that stuff?
I don't have the answers for that. I want rape victims to get justice. I also don't want anyone punished if they are not guilty. It's tough.
But the cultural and ideological stuff, we can address. To some degree, at least.
However, I agree with you in that not only the term "toxic masculinity" but also a number of other buzz phrases that the progressive left has used in recent years, are just badly chosen. Like progressives need to hire a better PR person or something, because a lot of the wordage is pretty self defeating.
Kissing and groping a women without consent is sexual assault. Rape is penetrative sex without consent, as such "Rape Jokes" as defined are nothing to do with rape. Once again we have a very clearly well defined legal term that has almost universal understanding, that has simply been change to suit a political agenda, the use of the term simply adds to the problems, and creation of the perception of the existance of gender wars.
Donald trump was voted in for many reasons, personally I believe a backlash against the rise of the far left is one of the main reasons, these days is seems virtually every public male figure in the US, has something dug up about them. People get sick of hearing it. I am certainly no fan of him from a political perspective
Proving guilt is very difficult under reasonable person test. Reasonable person tests are present in many areas of law. I am a tax accountant by profession, and when I was working in the profession a Reasonable Person test was one we needed to apply all the time in the interpretation of tax law.
Obviously these tests are in our laws for very good reasons.
The cultural and ideological stuff, can be addressed not doubt, however we need to look at it from everyone's perspective
Would you for instance treat women talking about grabbing a bloke or kicking a bloke in groin with the same disdain, as you would a man? Lets face it girls do this, I have been grouped by at least a dozen strange women in my life.
In the many TV shows and movies where a women and man meet, he doesn't like her and rejects her, but she doesn't give up...she "stalks" him, and "harasses" him until he gives in, would you say she has simply fallen in love?
Their are many other injustices in the world that are often not looked at, Take this BBC video for instance.
This is exactly what happens when, people are portrayed in popular culture in certain ways and with certain stereotypes, and as you seem to believe it a affects men greatly as well, however certainly from my perception if men open up about this, they are quickly swept under the carpet, in exactly the same way a women would also claim to be. Its almost seems like a war that nobody is ever going to win.
Kissing and groping a women without consent is sexual assault. Rape is penetrative sex without consent, as such "Rape Jokes" as defined are nothing to do with rape. Once again we have a very clearly well defined legal term that has almost universal understanding, that has simply been change to suit a political agenda, the use of the term simply adds to the problems, and creation of the perception of the existance of gender wars.
Donald trump was voted in for many reasons, personally I believe a backlash against the rise of the far left is one of the main reasons, these days is seems virtually every public male figure in the US, has something dug up about them. People get sick of hearing it. I am certainly no fan of him from a political perspective
Proving guilt is very difficult under reasonable person test. Reasonable person tests are present in many areas of law. I am a tax accountant by profession, and when I was working in the profession a Reasonable Person test was one we needed to apply all the time in the interpretation of tax law.
Obviously these tests are in our laws for very good reasons.
The cultural and ideological stuff, can be addressed not doubt, however we need to look at it from everyone's perspective
Would you for instance treat women talking about grabbing a bloke or kicking a bloke in groin with the same disdain, as you would a man? Lets face it girls do this, I have been grouped by at least a dozen strange women in my life.
In the many TV shows and movies where a women and man meet, he doesn't like her and rejects her, but she doesn't give up...she "stalks" him, and "harasses" him until he gives in, would you say she has simply fallen in love?
Their are many other injustices in the world that are often not looked at, Take this BBC video for instance.
This is exactly what happens when, people are portrayed in popular culture in certain ways and with certain stereotypes, and as you seem to believe it a affects men greatly as well, however certainly from my perception if men open up about this, they are quickly swept under the carpet, in exactly the same way a women would also claim to be. Its almost seems like a war that nobody is ever going to win.
You referenced gender wars early in your comment. In a war we need to choose sides. Whether we call groping or kissing a woman without her consent sexual assault or rape, I'm against it. Words matter and trying to reach a common understanding about the meaning of words is important, but the precise meaning of words matters less than the effort to get men to leave women alone, whatever we call their behavior.
I agree at lest somewhat with most of your other points, but I still hold that we simultaneously expect too little and too much from men, and those twisted expectations give cover to men behaving badly, sometimes criminally, as well as it gives cover to those who ignore men's very legitimate needs.
The vast majority of regular men and women could find common ground on a lot of issues. Yet we often don't. It's almost like someone benefits from men and women being at odds and other groups distrusting each other. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
You referenced gender wars early in your comment. In a war we need to choose sides. Whether we call groping or kissing a woman without her consent sexual assault or rape, I'm against it. Words matter and trying to reach a common understanding about the meaning of words is important, but the precise meaning of words matters less than the effort to get men to leave women alone, whatever we call their behavior.
I agree at lest somewhat with most of your other points, but I still hold that we simultaneously expect too little and too much from men, and those twisted expectations give cover to men behaving badly, sometimes criminally, as well as it gives cover to those who ignore men's very legitimate needs.
The vast majority of regular men and women could find common ground on a lot of issues. Yet we often don't. It's almost like someone benefits from men and women being at odds and other groups distrusting each other. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
Thank you for the input.
However if you do not mind me pointing out, the bolded is in my opinion is part of the problem , you used the word women, and made an example of men leaving women alone, if you used person/people for instance you have an entirely gender neutral term, which does not take sides.
What you have said, could easily be interpreted by the far right misogynist types, that women do not kiss or grope men without consent, and that men have absolutely no problem with been left alone by women, when both are untrue.
If we want to totally get rid of this behavior, using the gender neutral term would be might be best? I certainly think so.
Last edited by danielsa1775; 08-04-2021 at 10:31 PM..
Isn't this a case of "old habits die hard"? It's not as if men and women were all suddenly put into the world we have now. We have to go back to the stone age. Men banded together to hunt while cavewomen took care of their stone age kids and we all lived in tribes; which is 100s of thousands of years of old habits. Another one is that even when you look at men and women today men band together, stick together, and actually help each other far more than women do for each other. Yes, there are exceptions, but exceptions don't make army's.
Kind of like in high school if you were a cool girl that actually liked to go out and do activities they most usually had more guy friends than girlfriends.
I'm sure I'm going to get yelled and screamed at for saying this LOL.
Isn't this a case of "old habits die hard"? It's not as if men and women were all suddenly put into the world we have now. We have to go back to the stone age. Men banded together to hunt while cavewomen took care of their stone age kids and we all lived in tribes; which is 100s of thousands of years of old habits.
This is pseudo-anthropology...the kind of "just so" story that sounds truthy until you actually dig into the topic.
In very short, the archaeological record actually there was less gender division of roles prior to the development of settled farming. In migratory or nomadic hunter-gatherer societies women generally don't have more than one small child at a time, allowing them to be more mobile. It was agriculture and the associated advent of women spending much of their lives pregnant and/or nursing, with larger families including more small children, that placed huge practical limitations on the time and movement of the average woman. Off the top of my head, agriculture was "invented" maybe 13,000 years ago, but we're looking at more like 10,000-8,000 years ago before it really caught on as something sizeable groups of people could do year-round in areas like the Fertile Crescent, along the Nile, and in the Yellow River Valley, and later than that before it "took root" (haha, pun) in other parts of the globe that weren't as easy to farm...much much later in certain regions. Not that thousands of years isn't a long time, but you're way off on scale.
Also, it's patently absurd to think that women (and others too old or young to roam) didn't also "band together" to take care of tasks nearer to home. Prior to the invention of the sort of equipment that makes farming and domestic tasks less labor intensive, collaboration was absolutely crucial for survival.
I would also caution that men and women having different roles did not automatically indicate endemic misogyny in all societies. You do, as a natural consequence of early rulers being mostly warlords of one sort or another, see mostly men as national figureheads, but that doesn't mean men in general were correspondingly so dominant in all societies, nor that the female contribution was was automatically considered lesser, let alone that women were looked down upon. There are plenty of cultures across history that venerate powerful female deities, celebrate the feminine, place women in areas of influence and/or authority, feature matrilineal succession, etc. There's a lot of variety in history beyond, say, the Abrahamic or Athenian legacies that currently dominate so much of the world's thinking.
Last edited by Frostnip; 08-04-2021 at 11:48 PM..
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