Misogyny and its cause. (activist, vs, paycheck, states)

[Frostnip]

Originally Posted by Rachel NewYork

I haven't yet searched for statistics for men abusing other men in comparison to women abusing men in the same manner, but I somehow suspect that one may find far more examples of stronger men inflicting abuse of all kinds on weaker men, than one may find for women inflicting the same abuse on men in general.

My question is this: Are abusive males interested only in keeping women "in their place," or are they equally interested in keeping other men, deemed to be either physically or socially inferior in some way, "in their place"? Clearly, the term "misogyny" relates only to how women are treated (and I do believe that even other women can be misogynistic). But perhaps misogyny is a facet in a far more encompassing societal problem.

I think this is absolutely the case. Look at the stats (and dynamics) of sexual assault in prison, for example. And men are both the most frequent perpetrators and the most frequent victims of homicide.

I would note that I am not trying to villainize men en masse. There are plenty of men who, either by nature or by conscious choice, generally behave in an egalitarian and/or non-violent manner. Unfortunately, society tends to reward ruthless men as long as they can maintain some veneer of respectability. (Women also are capable of behaving ruthlessly, obviously, but I would argue that except in some narrow circumstances, it's seldom similarly rewarded.)

[9162]

Originally Posted by cb2008

Every religion, and every society, in all times have demonstrated hatred of women in vile to subtle ways. Yet women are one half of the human race, and importantly the only means of propagating the species as possessors of a uterus.
Racism, and caste, as evil as it is, is ultimately, in truth, a convenient construct as a means of exploitation. Female sex is not a construct. Women have always worked as hard as men, even through pregnancy and the bearing of children, the future farm hands. What was the natural benefit in the hate and oppression? What was the payoff of hating the producer of future workers?

A few things I can think of that spurs this hatred:
Vagina/uterus envy.
They are property that can be stolen, can elope, and thus a liability.
They can seduce one to lose his senses.
[cut]
We hate that which we fear. What is the cause of fear?

You sound like another lost soul, that perhaps took too many Women’s Studies courses, and have become brainwashed. There is a lot of truth in the statement, “that the best defense is a good offense,” which is the primary angle a lot of militant feminists use against men, many of which are lesbians, which have a history of animosity towards men. Your statement reeks of misandry, and ignores so much common sense about our history. Now, imagine, the early settlers coming over here from Europe on boats back in the 1600’s, imagine arriving here and seeing nothing but wilderness; imagine having to clear timber, build houses, plant farms, heat their homes, acquire clean water. Imagine, very little, or no livestock. There is no gasoline, or any power equipment used by gasoline. No power saws, no nail guns, no tractors, nothing. Now, think of what these men had to do to survive. How many women do you know live in a house that was built by all women? How many women do you know would go hunting, kill large livestock for survival. What about defending their families against enemies. How do you propose, that woman would survive, on their own? Think of all the lousy work men are willing to do to this day, much of which is hazardous. To this day, do you think men are really dependent on women? Do you think men marry out of necessity?

Let’s consider, the reason why many women marry men. Yes, many are looking for a companion, but many women marry to stabilize their lives. Men, in fact are a very good investment for women to make. When a woman marries a man, she marries his career, she has half his income, half of his college degree, half his pension, who pays most of the bills? Who worries about all the BS? If the roof leaks, if the gutter is falling down, if the furnace breaks, if the car breaks down, if there are plumbing issues, their electrical problems, they provide a lot of security to women. What men like to have, is somebody that will encourage them and be supportive, that build their confidence, that will love them. Men love romance.

I had An experience, about two years ago; I was sitting in the sauna at my local gym, with several guys sitting there, talking listening to complaints they have in their marriages, etc. I made a bold statement, that most men would probably never make, I stated, “you know it could be worse, you could have been gay.” “ You don’t realize it, but instead of heterosexual, you could’ve been homosexual, and you could’ve been a lot worse, oppressed in a whole different way, and not have the privilege of fitting in with society, not feeling isolated, etc”. I was surprised at their reaction, I thought they would get extremely defensive, and very homophobic, with me, but they didn’t. One of the guys said to me, “Now,I imagine you are in a marriage, that is Loveless and sexless, married to a woman that does not love you, that looks at you as nothing but an investment, or a symbol of security. I was blown away, the man said to me, “imagine, that your youngest is still in high school, and it feels like there’s no way out?” Some of the other men agreed with him, but since then I’ve thought a lot about it, and realize just how many heterosexual men are in very unhappy marriages, and feel stuck, mainly because the legal system/divorce court is often against them.

[Sonic_Spork]

Originally Posted by 9162

... Do you think men marry out of necessity?

My husband and I got married because we both wanted to. I feel sorry for anyone who doesn't do so for that reason.

Let’s consider, the reason why many women marry men. Yes, many are looking for a companion, but many women marry to stabilize their lives. Men, in fact are a very good investment for women to make. When a woman marries a man, she marries his career,

I enabled him to retire. I make over twice what he ever did.

she has half his income, half of his college degree,

Wow, that degree in radio and television that never served him well, that he got back in the 80's? I'll have to find something creative to do with it. Decoupage, perhaps?

half his pension,

HAHAHAHA...who has a pension, anymore? Not my husband. Not me.

who pays most of the bills?

I do. Next.

Who worries about all the BS?

What BS?

If the roof leaks,

we hire someone, and pay them with my money.

if the gutter is falling down,

we hire someone, and pay them with my money.

if the furnace breaks,

we hire someone, and pay them with my money.

if the car breaks down,

we hire someone, and pay them with my money.

if there are plumbing issues,

we hire someone, and pay them with my money.

their electrical problems,

we hire someone, and pay them with my money.

they provide a lot of security to women. What men like to have, is somebody that will encourage them and be supportive, that build their confidence, that will love them. Men love romance.

That is what I wanted, too. But unlike my first husband, I don't believe that I am entitled to it, if I treat my husband like crap. So yeah, I want love, romance, companionship, great sex and the best friend I could ever want...I also want him to act like a grownup and not throw childish temper tantrums. I happen to have all of that with my husband and so I am very happy, and happy to share the benefit of my good luck and hard work in my career, with him.

I had An experience, about two years ago; I was sitting in the sauna at my local gym, with several guys sitting there, talking listening to complaints they have in their marriages, etc. I made a bold statement, that most men would probably never make, I stated, “you know it could be worse, you could have been gay.” “ You don’t realize it, but instead of heterosexual, you could’ve been homosexual, and you could’ve been a lot worse, oppressed in a whole different way, and not have the privilege of fitting in with society, not feeling isolated, etc”. I was surprised at their reaction, I thought they would get extremely defensive, and very homophobic, with me, but they didn’t. One of the guys said to me, “Now,I imagine you are in a marriage, that is Loveless and sexless, married to a woman that does not love you, that looks at you as nothing but an investment, or a symbol of security. I was blown away, the man said to me, “imagine, that your youngest is still in high school, and it feels like there’s no way out?” Some of the other men agreed with him, but since then I’ve thought a lot about it, and realize just how many heterosexual men are in very unhappy marriages, and feel stuck, mainly because the legal system/divorce court is often against them.

Maybe those men should have taken it slower in forming those relationships, made those eager women wait before jumping into bed and making babies with someone they apparently didn't know that well.

I mean, when a woman has a bad marriage with a man who is a terrible father and/or husband, the general consensus is that it's our fault for failing to properly judge his character before opening our legs to him. Maybe men ought to take their own advice.

Just an idea.

[9162]

Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork

My husband and I got married because we both wanted to. I feel sorry for anyone who doesn't do so for that reason.


I enabled him to retire. I make over twice what he ever did.

You are only one person. You do not, in anyway represent the majority. Your experience says nothing to the majority of people, it also indicates nothing regarding those who are much older. Oh, and how did you get such a good job..?? Was it daddy who sent you to school? Helped out with your tuition. Ok now, make it good...

Oh, let’s not forget, women use men as nothing more than a sperm donor.

[Sonic_Spork]

Originally Posted by 9162

You are only one person. You do not, in anyway represent the majority. Your experience says nothing to the majority of people, it also indicates nothing regarding those who are much older. Oh, and how did you get such a good job..?? Was it daddy who sent you to school? Helped out with your tuition. Ok now, make it good...

Oh, let’s not forget, women use men as nothing more than a sperm donor.

Not at all!

I worked full time and went to part time college online and at night. I grabbed hold of good opportunities when they showed up.

Daddy didn't pay for a damn thing.

On the balance, men have brought more drama, heartache, suffering and trouble, to say nothing of expense, into my life than they've ever done me good.

But not the man I'm married to now.

I was actually quite convinced I'd never marry (and maybe never even be serious with a man) again. I took things pretty slow, was slow to commit especially, with this one. But over time it became clear how good we were for one another.

And I've found that people who are together because they WANT to be, are so much happier than those who get together because the feel driven by a NEED to be.

I don't think that there is any one story that represents a "majority." For better or worse, people do as they think they should in the time that they're making these decisions. Some people find happiness in their relationships and some don't.

I'm sorry if you have had negative experiences with women (not even implying romantically, just...whatever experiences have formed your outlook.) I don't think that you are obligated to try being in a relationship with a woman if that is not your inclination. But holding a belief that all women are basically bad people, for whatever reason that you do, is nothing but a form of bigotry.

Women, like men, are just people. Some people are good people and some people are crap. That's just how it is.

[9162]

Originally Posted by cb2008

Reluctance to cede power exists within the male world as well. Misogyny is not just about ceding control, it involves hate. Rape is not about sex, it is violence, even mutilation and death. It is hate of the female body and disgust for it. Female infanticide is a symptom of this sickness in the society, when being born female itself is punishment. Raping women is meted out as a revenge. No amount of “advancement” has been able to mitigate it, only fear of criminal charge and even that barely.

Do you actually think heterosexual women are sexually attracted to men? Do you think there are women that feel “lust” for the male anatomy? I don’t think any women are “sexually”attracted to men; women have other motives. Consider, the only hormone that causes sexual attraction is testosterone, when men have low testosterone, they lose interest in sex. When men have low testosterone, their levels are still considerably higher than that of women. Women are either lesbian or asexual. Women use sex an effective control on men.

[9162]

Originally Posted by jertheber

My father acted as though my mother was the hired help, demanding another cup of coffee from his recliner while mom did the laundry, the dishes, cooking, and taking care of us kids. The Old Scottish tribal view of women was carried into the modern times by my dad and his brothers.

I saw my father worked extra hours for years, making sure my step mother would never go without. She wanted the bigger house. She picked out the flooring, the tiles, the wall paper, and the furniture. She would often ignore his suggestions, many of which were related with staying within budget. She drove a beautiful car, that she picked out, more expensive than my fathers preferred taste. They went on vacations galore, my father had to take her back to Italy periodically to visit her relatives. I’ll never forget the day she called, to tell me my father had passed away that morning of a heart attack. There was no doubt in my mind, my father, like many men, had been worked to death. Now, everything he had worked for, was all hers. Mission accomplished.

[danielsa1775]

Originally Posted by 9162

I saw my father worked extra hours for years, making sure my step mother would never go without. She wanted the bigger house. She picked out the flooring, the tiles, the wall paper, and the furniture. She would often ignore his suggestions, many of which were related with staying within budget. She drove a beautiful car, that she picked out, more expensive than my fathers preferred taste. They went on vacations galore, my father had to take her back to Italy periodically to visit her relatives. I’ll never forget the day she called, to tell me my father had passed away that morning of a heart attack. There was no doubt in my mind, my father, like many men, had been worked to death. Now, everything he had worked for, was all hers. Mission accomplished.

Mine was the exactly the same, he was a farmer, and 80 hour weeks were normal, after me and my brother left home at age 10, (too far from the nearest school, so we have to leave home and live at the school). My mum took up Golf, Bridge, needle work, bought a piano , and was very involved in the local community in the form of voluntary work, my dad worked on the farm basically until he was no longer physically able to, he is not disabled or anything indeed he is very strong for an 80 year old, but it can be very hard physical work on farms sometimes.

[Sonic_Spork]

Originally Posted by 9162

I saw my father worked extra hours for years, making sure my step mother would never go without. She wanted the bigger house. She picked out the flooring, the tiles, the wall paper, and the furniture. She would often ignore his suggestions, many of which were related with staying within budget. She drove a beautiful car, that she picked out, more expensive than my fathers preferred taste. They went on vacations galore, my father had to take her back to Italy periodically to visit her relatives. I’ll never forget the day she called, to tell me my father had passed away that morning of a heart attack. There was no doubt in my mind, my father, like many men, had been worked to death. Now, everything he had worked for, was all hers. Mission accomplished.

I had a feeling that you had a story.

What happened to your Mom? Well, nevermind, really I should not pry and it's none of my business.

But your father had the agency to make his own choices, you know. He chose his woman for his own reasons and chose to stay with her. Even though she sounds pretty awful.

I've known some really good men who landed in relationships with some terrible women.

I've also known brutal, vicious abusers who were men, who traumatized their female partners for life. Yet I do not judge all men for their actions. Because that would not be fair, no matter my own experiences.

No matter the time my father tried to kill my mother in front of me, or the time he drove drunk, swerving on a curvy road at night with my child self and my infant brother in the truck with him and laughing at my fear, no matter all the holes punched in the walls, the shouting and hitting, or the times he cheated on my mother.

He is one man. Just as I am one woman. I don't get to represent all women, as you pointed out...but neither do the negative examples that you have known. My Dad isn't the only nasty drunk father or cheating husband out there, either. But I doubt you would accept that he is representative of you or other men. ?

All I want to say to you, is that carrying this kind of thing around, you are taking poison and hoping that your enemy will die. The burden of it harms you more than it does the women you hate, unless you're the sort to eventually go out and kill people or something. I hope not. But regardless...I hope you find a way to lay it aside and get on with your life. For your own sake if for no one else's.

[reneeh63]

Originally Posted by 9162

You are only one person. You do not, in anyway represent the majority. Your experience says nothing to the majority of people, it also indicates nothing regarding those who are much older. Oh, and how did you get such a good job..?? Was it daddy who sent you to school? Helped out with your tuition. Ok now, make it good...

Oh, let’s not forget, women use men as nothing more than a sperm donor.

Well, I'm another case - I make at least a third more than my BF. And yeah, most things are hired out except I handle all the yard work and some projects like refinishing and staining the deck.

In terms of school, actually my mom helped me out with my undergraduate studies (I paid for all of grad school). My mom got her money from an aunt who worked in the family business.

Believe me, more and more women are getting educated and making good money. They can choose whether they want to get involved with someone at all or if they want to remain single. You know, the kinds of choices men have been making over the years. Of course sometimes men married because THEY felt dependent on women - to give them "regular" sex and proper heirs.

Men aren't god's gift to women - couples can either complement each other and they can both be their best or they can choose to tear each other down. You seem to be on the adversarial side - probably best if you end up alone.