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xx or xy pretty much sums it up...xxy was brought up which is very hard I would imagine but medically this is how we determine if someone is a boy or a girl. What exactly are you referring to? If someone feels that they are the other psychologically (yes this is medical as well but it is not as exact) I have no problem addressing them however they want to be addressed but medically you are either xx-girl or xy-boy or xxy. Socially and medically are different
Just wait until some politician in the back pocket of a lawyer's lobby group introduces legislation requiring any business serving the public to maintain three bathrooms--male, female and transgender. The day that bill is introduced to Congress will be the day this has gone too far.
Actually, what would be far more likely would be a law requiring 3 bathrooms - Men, Women, and Unisex/Family/Disabled.
There are individuals with difficulties using the bathroom by themselves - their attendant is often their (opposite sex) spouse. Also, it can get awkward when parents have young children of the opposite sex. A single room without a gender designation can solve a whole lot of problems:
1) Disabled individuals can have their attendents
2) Parents can take care of their children
3) Transgender individuals don't get hassled.
Of the three, I suspect the disabled and parent groups have _far_ more lobbying power.
Last edited by karmatic; 10-01-2009 at 12:42 PM..
Reason: I apparently can't count.
xx or xy pretty much sums it up...xxy was brought up which is very hard I would imagine but medically this is how we determine if someone is a boy or a girl. What exactly are you referring to? If someone feels that they are the other psychologically (yes this is medical as well but it is not as exact) I have no problem addressing them however they want to be addressed but medically you are either xx-girl or xy-boy or xxy. Socially and medically are different
I was reading this post by a doctor about the/male female gender spectrum on another forum and it pretty much sums it up:
There are a number - over a hundred - of medical conditions we call "Intersex". That is, neither wholly male, nor wholly female.
This is not a philosophical issue, or a religious issue, it's a biological issue, capable of being examined and proven by objective tests.
Most - 98.3% in fact - people are normally male, or normally female. No doubts, no ambiguities. And of the 1.7% who are Intersexed, most are asymptomatic, and never know - unless they go to a fertility clinic, or have a gene test taken for health reasons. You could be one of them.
But for 1 in 1000 - yes, that common - it's not asymptomatic at all. Many of the more conditions have already been mentioned, but they're not the most spectacular ones.
AIS - androgen insensitivity syndrome. This feminises a masculine body. There are degrees - partial AIS 1 leads to a male body with hypogonadism, undeveloped genitalia, and probably some other feminisation too. Complete AIS (CAIS) results in a female body. Miss Teen America 1991 had CAIS. Women with CAIS universally have a female gender identity - more on that later.
CAH - congenital adrenal hyperplasia. This masculinises a feminine body. Again, there are degrees. Only 1 in 10 have a male gender identity, despite somewhat masculinised genitalia.
Kleinfelter - usually 47xxy rather than 46xy (male) or 46xx (female), though 48xxyy etc and combinations are also possible. These people usually look male, with male gender identities. But some don't, and some have even given birth.
Turner syndrome - 45x - has been explained before.
Swyer sundrome - 46xy, but with a complete female reproductive system, except for the gonads. They can give birth, but only as surrogate mothers.
There are 46xy women who have given birth in the normal way. There are 46xx men who have fathered children. There are mosaics, people with both 46xx and 46xy chromosomes in different parts of their bodies. Or 45x/46xy, or 47xxy/46xx, or 47xxy/46xy, and so on.
It gets worse though. It has been common medical practice to surgically alter newborn babies with unusual genitalia so they look "normal". This means that some normal baby boys whose male organ was deemed too small were castrated, and surgically altered to look female. Many only were told later in life - usually after they'd seen a psychiatrist because they thought they were transsexual. They looked female, but their gender identity was always male.
But that's not all. There are several rare conditions, such as 5ARD and 17BHDD that cause a natural sex change. Those born with 5ARD or 17BHDD look like little girls, regardless of their chromosomes. But half masculinise at puberty, the genitals change shape, and some can even father children. For 2/3 of them, this is a wonderful relief, gender identity is usually male. But for the rest, it's a descent into nightmare, and a medical emergency.
OK, that's Intersex - but what about Transsexuality? Isn't that just a mental illness, curable with therapy or drugs or something?
No. Transsexuality is a form of Intersex, one where the brain, rather than other parts of the body, is affected. In fact, other parts of the body are often affected too, and the only area of the brain that matters is the lymbic nucleus, the parts that deal with emotions, instincts, body map, ovulation and so on.
This has been known since 1996, as the result of autopsies on the brains of transsexual people. We've known that male and female brains differ structurally for even longer, but the results from 1996 show that transsexuals have cross-gendered brains, just as some intersexed people have cross-gendered genitalia or chromosomes. We can now use Functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging (fMRI) to show this on people who aren't dead. Which is a distinct advantage to the people concerned.
See:
Zhou JN, Hofman MA, Gooren LJ, Swaab DF. A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality. Nature (1995) 378:68–70.
Kruijver FP, Zhou JN, Pool CW, Hofman MA, Gooren LJ, Swaab DF. Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041.
And many other papers on the subject.
It comes down to a matter of respect. You should use "He" and "His" for someone who presents as male, and "She" and "Her" for someone who presents as female. Because lacking chromosome tests, ultrasounds, a medical history of surgery performed on them when a few weeks old, a karyotype etc etc you really can't say what sex they are, regardless of your definition.
And for those who think chromosomes are the be-all and end-all, have you had a Karyotype (chromosome test) recently? You may be of the opposite sex to the one you think you are - by your own definition. (end quote)
I'm not trying to have a go at anyone by the way. Just that a bit of education on intersex conditions seems to be required given some of the posts i've read here.
Last edited by archineer; 10-01-2009 at 01:01 PM..
I was reading this post by a doctor about the/male female gender spectrum on another forum and it pretty much sums it up:
There are a number - over a hundred - of medical conditions we call "Intersex". That is, neither wholly male, nor wholly female.
This is not a philosophical issue, or a religious issue, it's a biological issue, capable of being examined and proven by objective tests.
Most - 98.3% in fact - people are normally male, or normally female. No doubts, no ambiguities. And of the 1.7% who are Intersexed, most are asymptomatic, and never know - unless they go to a fertility clinic, or have a gene test taken for health reasons. You could be one of them.
But for 1 in 1000 - yes, that common - it's not asymptomatic at all. Many of the more conditions have already been mentioned, but they're not the most spectacular ones.
AIS - androgen insensitivity syndrome. This feminises a masculine body. There are degrees - partial AIS 1 leads to a male body with hypogonadism, undeveloped genitalia, and probably some other feminisation too. Complete AIS (CAIS) results in a female body. Miss Teen America 1991 had CAIS. Women with CAIS universally have a female gender identity - more on that later.
CAH - congenital adrenal hyperplasia. This masculinises a feminine body. Again, there are degrees. Only 1 in 10 have a male gender identity, despite somewhat masculinised genitalia.
Kleinfelter - usually 47xxy rather than 46xy (male) or 46xx (female), though 48xxyy etc and combinations are also possible. These people usually look male, with male gender identities. But some don't, and some have even given birth.
Turner syndrome - 45x - has been explained before.
Swyer sundrome - 46xy, but with a complete female reproductive system, except for the gonads. They can give birth, but only as surrogate mothers.
There are 46xy women who have given birth in the normal way. There are 46xx men who have fathered children. There are mosaics, people with both 46xx and 46xy chromosomes in different parts of their bodies. Or 45x/46xy, or 47xxy/46xx, or 47xxy/46xy, and so on.
It gets worse though. It has been common medical practice to surgically alter newborn babies with unusual genitalia so they look "normal". This means that some normal baby boys whose male organ was deemed too small were castrated, and surgically altered to look female. Many only were told later in life - usually after they'd seen a psychiatrist because they thought they were transsexual. They looked female, but their gender identity was always male.
But that's not all. There are several rare conditions, such as 5ARD and 17BHDD that cause a natural sex change. Those born with 5ARD or 17BHDD look like little girls, regardless of their chromosomes. But half masculinise at puberty, the genitals change shape, and some can even father children. For 2/3 of them, this is a wonderful relief, gender identity is usually male. But for the rest, it's a descent into nightmare, and a medical emergency.
OK, that's Intersex - but what about Transsexuality? Isn't that just a mental illness, curable with therapy or drugs or something?
No. Transsexuality is a form of Intersex, one where the brain, rather than other parts of the body, is affected. In fact, other parts of the body are often affected too, and the only area of the brain that matters is the lymbic nucleus, the parts that deal with emotions, instincts, body map, ovulation and so on.
This has been known since 1996, as the result of autopsies on the brains of transsexual people. We've known that male and female brains differ structurally for even longer, but the results from 1996 show that transsexuals have cross-gendered brains, just as some intersexed people have cross-gendered genitalia or chromosomes. We can now use Functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging (fMRI) to show this on people who aren't dead. Which is a distinct advantage to the people concerned.
See:
Zhou JN, Hofman MA, Gooren LJ, Swaab DF. A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality. Nature (1995) 378:68–70.
Kruijver FP, Zhou JN, Pool CW, Hofman MA, Gooren LJ, Swaab DF. Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041.
And many other papers on the subject.
It comes down to a matter of respect. You should use "He" and "His" for someone who presents as male, and "She" and "Her" for someone who presents as female. Because lacking chromosome tests, ultrasounds, a medical history of surgery performed on them when a few weeks old, a karyotype etc etc you really can't say what sex they are, regardless of your definition.
And for those who think chromosomes are the be-all and end-all, have you had a Karyotype (chromosome test) recently? You may be of the opposite sex to the one you think you are - by your own definition. (end quote)
I'm not trying to have a go at anyone by the way....
wow, no that was really interesting...I knew of conditions as far as hormone imbalances and different brain chemistry being factors but have never heard of some of the things you mentioned. Natural sex changes? XY women giving birth? Nuts. If you have a medical journal source I would be interested. Not saying what you write isn't very insightful, just a standard of information is always good to have.
yes, the proper thing is to address people however they want to be addressed I agree, but medically some people are indeed the other sex, different than how they are psychologically
Being in a relationship with a transgender person, i've taken the time to educate myself on the issue, and thought this was the best explanation on the condition i've seen. It'll take some time for me to link to the medical research on each of the conditions listed here though.
you don't have to worry about it, I was just interested in really the issues of xy females and the natural sex changes, I mean this is how we would forensically say male or female- xx or xy so an xy female (naturally, excluding sex changes) I found really interesting and how in the world you could have a natural sex change, some of the other things you mentioned I do remember hearing about in a class before but some I don't think I have come across...when you get into cross gendered brains though it can get tricky calling that natural, it could be but it might not, we don't know last I heard. Whether the brain changed as the persons behavior changed or if the brain caused the behavior
If you have a medical journal source I would be interested. Not saying what you write isn't very insightful, just a standard of information is always good to have.
There are lots of journals - anything in particular you are looking for?
If you're looking for anything specific, I can probably find it for you quite easily.
Some people believe that God makes men, or women - that He does not make mistakes.
1 in 1500 live births are ambiguous enough to involve a surgeon right now. Those are merely the physical intersex. We know from CAIS that complete lack of exposure to testosterone _will_ result in a female - regardless of chromosomes. On one extreme you have a male with XY chromosomes, who thinks as a male, looks as a male. On the other extreme, you have a female with XY chromosomes, who thinks as a female, and looks as a female. They often only find out due to genetic testing when they can't have kids.
There is a middle ground between the two, and if God makes men, and God makes women, He makes people in between as well.
Last edited by karmatic; 10-01-2009 at 01:27 PM..
Reason: Can't link to the pubmed pages for some reason.
you don't have to worry about it, I was just interested in really the issues of xy females and the natural sex changes, I mean this is how we would forensically say male or female- xx or xy so an xy female (naturally, excluding sex changes) I found really interesting and how in the world you could have a natural sex change, some of the other things you mentioned I do remember hearing about in a class before but some I don't think I have come across...when you get into cross gendered brains though it can get tricky calling that natural, it could be but it might not, we don't know last I heard. Whether the brain changed as the persons behavior changed or if the brain caused the behavior
I've heard this debate before, but I don't buy it as the limbic structures develop from the first three months after conception. The human brain is masculinised or feminised in the womb. More research needs to be undertaken though.
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