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As can be seen from the responses on this thread, there is no 'Answer.' One's perspective severely skews one's response. If a Native American from 500 years ago had been asked the question and would somehow have known what the future held, what would have been his/her response? Ask the same question to the people coming in from Europe at the time; what would their answer have been? Certainly not the same. The same applies today.
Personally, my opinion is that we have no right condemning immigration at this point because nearly all of us are here because of an immigrant somewhere along the line. Pretty hypocritical to condemn it now. If it's bad now, well, it was bad 500 years ago for somebody too.
This country is no more overpopulated than any other country. And if your sacred lifestyle is changed over it... well gee, lot's of lifestyles were changed in the past--and much more radically than yours, I'm sure.
BTW, I'm not talking about illegal immigration. That's another topic altogether.
Ok well look at we can't take in people for ever, there are only so much people that can fit in a space comfortably. When half of this country was unpopulated because the white man shot all the indians and needed people to fill up the land there was lots of space and it made sense to come. you did not have to live above 5000 other people to live. I think we are reaching the same place in population as we are with global pollution we can't just keep polluting and expect nothing bad to happen the same goes for immigration. Imiigration should be moderated. we have enough illegals to come here that we don't need any more immigrants.
i don't think that's right either. that's pretty unethical as well. how about americans do the crummy jobs as well. this 'foreigner do crummy and dangerous job' is very assinine and speaks of inhumane attitudes period.
lots of esl teachers go to korea for perks and jobs, i don't see them recruiting americans or 'whites' for the most crummy, low, or unwanted jobs. clean your own toilets as well. what makes you think it's okay to have all the good jobs and give the bad jobs to outsiders, whether in or outside your country? that's a rhetorical question because that's akin to just bad treatment.
No one wants to immigrate to korea from america becaus e korea is poor, whereas the opposite is not true. Why should americans do the crummy jobs, we are born here, natives, you immigrants and johnny come latelys you do the crappy jobs, its called seniority. You don't walk into Nike as the janitor and expect on the first day to be running the company that is assinine. Outsiders shouldn't have bad jobs forever, just for a short amount of time a few years.
But what does this to do with outsourcing? I think you have many issues in your mind and you end up mixing them up. Outsourcing, immigration, foreign investment are all different issues. "
I think you just lack a knowledge on the subject and maybe I never explained it all clearly to you so you understand.
"Let me give you the basics so that in the future you can come up with more complete thoughts.
Outsourcing is moving the production to another country. Realize that whatever the tastes of that country have nothing to do with the success of outsourcing as you still cater your previous market, not necessarily the new country. Example: Apple moving Ipod production to China, Dell moving call-centers to India.
Immigration is the movement of labor from one country to another. Firms, looking for cheaper labor, use outsourcing and foreign labor via immigration to reduce costs. However, these two have different implications in terms of domestic GDP.
Foreign Investment is a total different animal (though outsourcing is a small part of it). It includes production in a foreign country to cater that country's population. Here some companies get it right and succeed (just as many start-up firms succeed or fail) while many fail. The 90% number is probably from there and I am not surprised a bit. I would say even domestic firms have similar numbers. KFC, for example, hit it big in China.
In terms of currency, fixed exchange rate provides security for foreign investors. I am sure they are happy with it. It is our government who is not happy with the situation as it results a persistent trade deficit for us. "
No fixed exchange rates provide security for the government and domestic businesses primarily export based ones so that they can send their undervalued products to usa for cheap. Of course the chinese are happy with their system it works for them. Imports to china are madly expensive so chinese save 50% of their earnings and exports from china are dirt cheap because they undervalue and keep their dollar pinned to US dollar.
Your also forgetting that Walmart, Kfc and and allt he big firms including mcdonald's took big loses when they went into china for years. It took years before they actually turned profits. If you are Walmart or mcdonald's you have a near endless supply of money but for a company "near going out of business" as the situation was given to me by another respondent, success in China is highly unlikely.
"In terms of productivity of Chinese workers, I have to say someone did a trick on you. They work in quite inhumane conditions for next to nothing. That is the main reason why Chinese products are so cheap. Lazy demanding Chinese workers? LOL. That made me laugh.
"
No you have a misunderstanding of productivty. Productivity is how much you produce per xyz, hour minute, year and so on. You can work like a dog, but if you don't have computer skills, can't read, are unfamiliar with the concept of an assembly line or never even seen one before your productivity goes down. GE tried to open plants in China several times and they keep going back to USA and germany because Chinese workers are not productive enough in this field. Most Chinese have not used a washing machine, and any chienese who has used one would never work in a plant for that kind of money. So no, no one pulled a trick on me, I just assumed you understood productivity, but I guess I was wrong.
Take away the crumby jobs? Ha, I have news for you: those 'crumby' jobs tend to be the most important in keeping our civilization going. We all tend to think that everyone should be a rocket scientist. Won't work. We really don't need all that many rocket scientists. Or lawyers. Or accountants. Or desk jockeys. Or government thugs inventing ways to more efficiently fleece us.
Try having your town go without a garbage collector for a month; see what happens. Try not having someone picking the fruit or produce that you eat for a few months; see what happens. I don't find 'crumby' jobs crumby at all. I'm thankful that somebody does them and the way I see it, those jobs should all pay much better than they do. The people doing those crumby jobs actually keep me alive. Rather than looking down our noses at these people and demonizing them, we ought to be thanking them.
No I don't think everyone should be a rocket scientist thats my point. Th e"pro-immigration" people say that all americans need to get 10 degrees and be an engineer, corporate clown, or government thug. I think that people in america should be able to be a plumber or work in afctory and still make a decent living. That will NEVER happen if you keep pumping in immigrants here.
I agree with you 100%, "Crumpy" jobs need to pay more but that is only a wish. If you keep letting in millions of peopel willing to be garbage men, how will garbage men ever get paid more?
seren77;10
ust to add my 2 cents. The world is not black and white. Neither this issue. One has to look at all aspects, understand the reasons, as well as alternatives. Let's start with illegal immigrants:
"- Let's say they are bad for the economy. Assume their costs far exceed their benefits. The question becomes how to stop it. What is the extent we are willing to go to stop illegal immigration. We are talking about almost 2000 miles of borders we need to cover. We are also talking about making the mobility more difficult through visas etc. between the two countries. What are the costs associated with it and whether it is worth to pursue going after them given the costs."
I won't even touch illegal immigration.
"- Most of the time, we are just looking at the available employment as a fixed number. Unfortunately, it is not only general public or politicians that does this. Even many economists go that route when needed in order to support their agenda. Consider the businesses that directly cater immigrants, ie wire transfers, ethnic supermarkets etc. Their mere existence are directly related to immigrants. Those jobs are not existent without immigrants. "
-Partially true, but if we kicked out all the immigrants then more jobs would open up. Then it might actually be worth it for the average american to go get a second or first degree.
"- Take agriculture, the main magnet of illegal and/or low skilled immigrant labor. The whole industry survives with heavy subsidies plus cheap labor. "
Well if no one is doing the job anyways, might as well have someone than no one do them. No american wants to pick pineapples or cabbage heads.
"Take one of them away and the industry ceases to exist. It is really naive to just say those jobs will be taken by Americans at the right price."
On the other hand, if picking horse radish and beet paid $50 an hour or what 3 mexican get at an average 15- an hour then there would be lots of american picking stuff. How do I know this, because in scandinavian countries natives do these jobs and get high wages like $17 an hour is like the lowest wage for any job.
" At the right price, production costs will be so high so that those firms will not be able to compete with their foreign counterparts and cease to exist."
No at the right price, american will work for these jobs. Fruits are hard to import and the entire agriculture industry is subsidized world wide outside of Africa. Europe, asia, and americas all subside there fruits ther e is no free trade here. Foreign counterparts get slapped with import duties because of subsidies. in america there are counter tariffs, on any product that is 10 % cheaper than its american cheapest priced counter part. so if mexico tries to export apples to USA for 20% below the lowest american priced apple, it gets tarrifed up the wazoo.
" Again, I am not suggesting that we should continue to do what we are doing, but I acknowledge that these jobs will not be simply available to natives once immigrant labor is gone."
I just think your not considering, when immigrants are gone, the supply of labor dries up and wages go up. Like the IT industry, very few people are qualified in IT through university, yet they pay high wages 100k plus with 5 years experience, even though they play on computers all day and talk on msn because thereis a lack of workers and every company needs an it person(S)
" Another simple example is domestic service jobs (think nannies). It is well-documented that they are more commonly used in immigrant heavy states, ie California. Why? Because they are cheaply available by immigrants. Getting rid of them does not mean they will be filled by natives."
TRUE There are some jobs americans will never do, so lets just stop the immigrants who have 10 degrees from some country who will take jobs for blue and white collar americans. If you pick fruit, or if your a nany sure come here all you want. If you want to work in a factory or be a good job, go away.
"- Lastly skilled migration. I have yet to see a convincing study that suggest skilled migration increases unemployment. Benefits are limitless. "
Amd so are the loses. You realize many high paying jobs are limited in their hiring. They hire immigrants over natives as often they bais to their own. This makes them unemployed in their own countries while immigrants have their own countries. For example,me and an immigrant from China go for an accounting or engineering job. They hire him because he will work for less than me and they will not offer me the kind of low salary because they know i will ****%%@#!@. So he gets hired. Now I have no job and the immigrant does.
"What we are essentially doing is we are adding highly trained, highly educated population from other countries without spending a dime on years of schooling that they have readily taken from their own country. "
Yes but what about the engineer or aco****ing student who now defaults on student loans because an immigrant took his job? In my ivey league business program only 10 out 400 people are not immigrants. So I can't help but think that more natives would be here if all these immigrants were not. some native will not get a job at that accounting firm, or banking industry because of these hundreds of immigrants. No one will say that immigrants are bad because most the professors are themesleves immigrants or have immigrant bosses or deans.
"But let's again assume they are also hurting the economy. What is the alternative? From firms' perspective, skilled immigration and outsourcing are substitutes."
So is hiring skilled natives
" Do we prefer the capital also leave the country or do we prefer at least a large portion of the earnings by the immigrants spent domestically and become a part of the economy? "
Well I'm not getting and neither is most americans.
I've been an immigrant in 9 other countries, trying pretty conscientiously not to be an ugly American. But I was still seen by many as a pretty unwelcome intruder. I was also raised by an immigrant to this country.
No one wants to immigrate to korea from america becaus e korea is poor, whereas the opposite is not true. Why should americans do the crummy jobs, we are born here, natives, you immigrants and johnny come latelys you do the crappy jobs, its called seniority. You don't walk into Nike as the janitor and expect on the first day to be running the company that is assinine. Outsiders shouldn't have bad jobs forever, just for a short amount of time a few years.
you have no idea what you are talking about. it's like your info is from a few decades ago. korea is not a poor country. do you just make this stuff up in your head???? it's an overcrowded small country about the size of florida and in that reason there is little incentive to live there unless you like nyc congestion type of life. there are very few even rural areas left.
also, your idea about seniority 'sounds' legitmate or 'fair' but it's antiquated. people fill jobs based on merit and it should be based on merit. a doctor that immigrates shouldn't have to be a friggin janitor to appease your sense of seniority. that's a whole another issue regarding immigration. if you think immigration should be controlled, that's sound and fine but to say newly arrived immigrants need to be treated like second or third class citizens i don't agree with and it's not even necessary. actually, i think it's pretty horrible because that is basically what you are endorsing.
Capitalism has been the mainstay of of those folk's who have dominated the world for a long time, as a system it has no bounds on the manner in which the proletariat lives. The capitalist system in America seems to thrive on the diverse population that immigration provides, it serves the ruling class,(they make the rules), hence no change needed. In fact, more government benefits for immigrants spreads the labor cost among corporate interests and taxpayers, just the way the fat cats like it.
Corporations have no soul, heart or brain, they just exist to make the shareholders money. I doubt that we will never have an immigration policy that denies the corporations the stratified labor cost they have become accustomed to. Whether the average American agrees with the present policies or not is of little consequence to the leadership class in our nation, thus, very little will ever be done in regard to legal or illegal immigration, the laws we now have are not being enforced, more laws will not change the situation.
I think this is the perfect example of the evidence showing itself as to who really rules America. Some people still labor under the illusion of a participant democracy, one in which the people seek to change their government, it's beneficial to know this just isn't the case, especially with immigration.
On the one hand we have seen a lot of American's cheering for the corporations when their 401K was going through the stratosphere, most didn't care how that profit was being made, if their own job was sacrificed to the bottom line they'd have to cheer because it may have improved the overall wealth in their portfolio. Capitalism exists exclusively to serve the shareholders interest, hiring cheap labor is but one of the strategies that is used to that end.
I disagree either immigrants in a down economy are bad or good. Either they are stealing our jobs and sending to other countries or they are creating more demand
Good or bad based on whose definition?
It also cannot be classified as stealing if your laws and infrastructure are set up to allow it. That is to say YOU personally might think it's stealing but your laws would indicate this is not the case.
In other words despite the fact that you as an individual may vote and rally your government to say it's a bad thing which directly affects you, your government and policy makers have clearly determined (with a good deal of lobbying from corporations and those organizations I previously mentioned) that it is not. Their position is to control YOU the citizen by forcing you to compete not just against your fellow countrymen for work and a quality of life but also to erode your basic wage, benefits and quality of life by increasing competition in your workforce with immigrants who would actually be improving theirs (wages, benefits and quality of life) by coming to America and under cutting you.
Just as jertheber has said here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jertheber
Capitalism has been the mainstay of of those folk's who have dominated the world for a long time, as a system it has no bounds on the manner in which the proletariat lives. The capitalist system in America seems to thrive on the diverse population that immigration provides, it serves the ruling class,(they make the rules), hence no change needed. In fact, more government benefits for immigrants spreads the labor cost among corporate interests and taxpayers, just the way the fat cats like it.
Corporations have no soul, heart or brain, they just exist to make the shareholders money. I doubt that we will never have an immigration policy that denies the corporations the stratified labor cost they have become accustomed to. Whether the average American agrees with the present policies or not is of little consequence to the leadership class in our nation, thus, very little will ever be done in regard to legal or illegal immigration, the laws we now have are not being enforced, more laws will not change the situation.
I think this is the perfect example of the evidence showing itself as to who really rules America. Some people still labor under the illusion of a participant democracy, one in which the people seek to change their government, it's beneficial to know this just isn't the case, especially with immigration.
On the one hand we have seen a lot of American's cheering for the corporations when their 401K was going through the stratosphere, most didn't care how that profit was being made, if their own job was sacrificed to the bottom line they'd have to cheer because it may have improved the overall wealth in their portfolio. Capitalism exists exclusively to serve the shareholders interest, hiring cheap labor is but one of the strategies that is used to that end.
you have no idea what you are talking about. it's like your info is from a few decades ago. korea is not a poor country. do you just make this stuff up in your head???? it's an overcrowded small country about the size of florida and in that reason there is little incentive to live there unless you like nyc congestion type of life. there are very few even rural areas left.
also, your idea about seniority 'sounds' legitmate or 'fair' but it's antiquated. people fill jobs based on merit and it should be based on merit. a doctor that immigrates shouldn't have to be a friggin janitor to appease your sense of seniority. that's a whole another issue regarding immigration. if you think immigration should be controlled, that's sound and fine but to say newly arrived immigrants need to be treated like second or third class citizens i don't agree with and it's not even necessary. actually, i think it's pretty horrible because that is basically what you are endorsing.
I remmeeber that korean guy who shot up the school in virginia and it showed how poor korea was in cnn. It showed how he came to america from a korean ghetto. I am sure there are some rich koreans like there are some rich people in every country but korea has a gdp according to cia factbook of only 17k, thats not a developed country. Korea has a gdp that is on par with Libya-an african country, estonia-a former soviet republic and taiwan. All have some economic development but lots of poverty. Not necessarily rural poor, but still poor. Korea is poor by american standards a gdp of 17k and most 1st world countries have at least 30k and developed countries have at the very least 20k. I mean chezh republic is considered still developing and it has 21k gdp and I have been told so by Czech people.
Immigrants want to come here they can work there way up. There is no reason for Korean or Chinese doctors to come here and when plenty of americans cannot find jobs. It is what I am endorsing, it is an american value to mistreat immigrants, italians, germans, dutch, ukranians, quakers, blacks, russians, czechs, irishi, mexicans, puerto ricans, natives, catholics, scottish, welsh, and so on were all discriminated against and any new immigrant has to join the club to be an american. Your not american until you have been discriminated against. So far indians and chinese have gotten away.
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