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Yes the point of capitalism is to maximize profits but surely we all agree capitalism doesn't say taht I should be able to kidnap women and tie them up in my house and open up a ***** house and have men come in and rape them against their will for money. so we agree capitalism has its limits. No one here will try to argue that if I can make money kidnapping women and selling them like objects go ahead.
Well, that's the thing - capitalism is not a moral ethos. Capitalism is limited by the restrictions society chooses to impose - but those restrictions are not an inherent part of "capitalism." Capitalism has no "moral" content - it's just an economic system of exchange.
Under a theory of pure capitalism, if you can make money by kidnapping and enslaving women and forcing them into prostitution, then you will become successful by doing exactly that. In fact, this does happen around the world, including in the United States.
We impose laws against this type of conduct due to our own moral constraints - not because capitalism has inherent limits. Capitalism's boundaries have to be designed and overseen by laws and enforcement agents. Unfettered and unregulated capitalism only rewards profit. If you could make profiit by kidnapping people and hacking them up in order to harvest and sell their organs, then capitalism would reward you.
The law might step in and punish you, but that's not an inherent feature of capitalism. The law is a separate entity.
Location: West Los Angeles and Rancho Palos Verdes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolDude76
Most of these immigrants from China and India come here on H1B. Around 40-50% process permanent residency and settle down permanently and rest go back to their home country. On an average these H1Bs make around 70K per year. They pay taxes, pay insurance, pay rent, shop from american stores etc etc. and The biggest is this social security tax they pay in 5-6 years of stay and once they go back they are never going to use this money and this money is used for SS benefits for Americans. Are they not creating jobs here as well by using services of americans. Definitely there will be less consumption of things hence less jobs if american population is 150 million not 330 million.
Americans pay taxes, pay insurance, pay rent, shop from American stores etc., so I don't know why that would be a justification for importing scab labor to replace willing American workers.
And Americans have had no trouble creating jobs without importing cheap foreign labor.
You guys really do need to think through these same tired talking points because we've heard it all before.
Immigration can obviously have its economic advantages - just think of all the tech companies like Hotmail that were founded in the US by immigrants from countries like India in recent years.
And Americans have had no trouble creating jobs without importing cheap foreign labor.
But many times they did. 100 years ago Eastern Europeans came in droves to work in steel mills and the Scots-Irish came to work in the coal mines. Had there been thousands of "willing American workers" these people wouldn't have succeeded and stayed in this country.
Americans pay taxes, pay insurance, pay rent, shop from American stores etc., so I don't know why that would be a justification for importing scab labor to replace willing American workers.
And Americans have had no trouble creating jobs without importing cheap foreign labor.
You guys really do need to think through these same tired talking points because we've heard it all before.
Well I do not agree that companies are bringing asians to replace willing American workers. I have seen it numerous times candidate with higher salary expectation getting hired even when other candidates were willing to do it for less, because he was the best person for the job OR he was bringing something extra on the table. So the logic that americans are being kicked out because they are costly is not true. If you can show your value no one is going to kick you out. it's all about ROI.
Also the point I am trying to make is that every thing is not negative about immigrants. Immigrants are contributing in economy as well. 1 more immigrant means 1 less job for american, it's not as simple as this. If the immigrants are not here there will be less no of jobs in market as there would have been less demand hence less production.
Just think what will happen if the american companies are not able to create quality product or keep the cost down, would they be able to compete in global market. wouldn't they be closing down. Ford is not able to compete Toyota and Honda. I bet you all will be screaming if you hold the shares of the company that made loss because they choose to hire american only and they don't like outsourcing.
Ya do you want to be an adult man who sleeps in the same bed as his mother, wife, children and grandmother? I didn't think so. Chinese and Indian people live this way, and thats fine and dandy for them, they have a very old and great culture and thats there cultures way of getting by, but america is not china, we did not exist in the year 300 and we are not going to live like the chinese.
Also chinese land is more fertile and in the cities millions of chinese live in cramped shacks and labour camps that no american would ever live in. America's population is growing with no end in sight, yet china's population is falling and that is true. Soon enough all of mexico will move here with all of china and america will look foreign to its own people.
Yeah, but looking down at others who think thats just fine doesn't make you right either.
We have plenty of room at our current standard of living. Chinese live in cramped areas because they have 1 billion more people than our country does.
Ya do you want to be an adult man who sleeps in the same bed as his mother, wife, children and grandmother? I didn't think so. Chinese and Indian people live this way, and thats fine and dandy for them, they have a very old and great culture and thats there cultures way of getting by, but america is not china, we did not exist in the year 300 and we are not going to live like the chinese.
Also chinese land is more fertile and in the cities millions of chinese live in cramped shacks and labour camps that no american would ever live in. America's population is growing with no end in sight, yet china's population is falling and that is true. Soon enough all of mexico will move here with all of china and america will look foreign to its own people.
actually, no one is sure what is the oldest race. actually, there is some speculation that northeast asians might be the youngest race.
asians don't sleep together and if they do, it's because they can't afford a larger space. besides the fact asians utilize better space and don't waste as much. traditionally, they will fold up their bedding and convert the room for the day etc. there is nothing wrong with that.
asians also live in a lot of hirises, are looking to build very 'green' cities. having lots of space to yourself doesn't make you better or more evolved.
...having lots of space to yourself doesn't make you better or more evolved.
The typical McMansion in the US these days takes up the space of a hotel... for two or three people. What a joke and a complete waste. You are right, there is nothing better or more evolved about it. Quite the opposite.
You have 8 states that immigrants (legal and illegal)settle in.
Be that as it may, what repercussions exist in your state for corporations that hire them?
None, the government refuses to enforce the laws because the corporations who hir eimigrants pay political contributions which are necessary to run for office.
Originally Posted by jungeon What your not pointing out is that japan is overpopulated and that by 2100 there population will be 60 million because it has become too expensive to have children, most americans don't want to live like that. I don't know why you would even think for a second that Japan is not overpopulated because it is. Japan is a country where they have farms on top of roofs of high rise buildings and most people live in apartments. Its irresponsible to pack your country to the brim like that. People who live in the suburbs don't want to live like people in japan who pay $500,000 to live in a tiny cramped apartment with 1 kid and a souse. Also realize that Japan's land is much more fertile than any place in america and california is a desert and i destroying the environment by trying to support these huge populations.
"Not because it has "become too expensive to have children", but rather this is a trend seen in industrialized nations. Contraceptives and prevailing attitudes of not having children are huge factor. Overpopulation implies that the country is unable to sustain its population. Having the second largest economy in the world clearly proves otherwise. People who live in the suburbs may have to live like people in Japan. Remember that said suburbs were once farmlands (I know, I grew up in the Inland Empire). Things change. People now got used to the "dense" suburbs of houses on small quarter acre lots. Since CA is a desert, having suburban style housing is a bad idea in the first place. It's not the population aspect that is destroying the environment, but rather where we place our resources. Currently, our lawns and manicured planned communities are sucking up too much water." gee so people just have less children because they feel like having less children.No, I been to Italy and know many Italians a nation well known for having many children. Now no one has more than 1 kid there not because of contraceptives or even the high amount of abortions, its because no one can afford to have 5 kids anymore unless you make $120,000 or more annually and have a second income. Kids cost money and no one can afford it, thats why people have abortions, it ruins them economically to have too many kids sometimes even 1. I'd argue that if your country's population has peaked its damn near as over populated as it is going to get. I f no one in Japan wants to have more kids there must be a good reason=cost. Do you see any other desert with 40 million people living in it? No and theres good reason, any californian will tell you that they are overpopulated, not enough water, elcetrcity, running out of money and so on no jobs. etc run by gangs race war. Most people in my experience who live in suburbs are of recent immigrants not long timers. Very few people came from farms to live on suburbs who I know as it is hard to go from such a peaceful farm life to a hectic sub city life and i use to live in a semi farm region.
"First off, CA is not all desert. Most of it's populated parts are a Mediterranean climate."
Partially true, lots is desert lots is not. I've been to the meditarrain and would describe it as semi desert. Not really the place where you would want to settle 40 million people if you had the choice. Poor soil type, not enough rain.
"Secondly, the Middle East (a true desert, has WELL over 40 million people living there...Iraq and Saudi Arabia alone account for nearly 60 million people). "
See this is different. Iraq is largely desert but there are 2 rivers that run through iraq which make it more like arizona, with a colorado river except 2. Also northern iraq is not really desert. And much of it is steppe not desert. Also realize that these 2 rivers have more volume than any other america rivers except the missippi. also Iraq has 15 million less people than cali even though it has way more water flowing through it.
"Water usage in CA is irresponsible. I promise you if you had half the lawns in CA, we would not be in a water crisis. We have enough electricity in CA. Money was wasted when our population was smaller. Also, crime decreased as our population rose."
Maybe you dont best use your water but you must admit California must have some kind of limit, it cannot support a billion people
"Go to the Inland Empire. People sold their farms for housing. MANY communities have an odd looking house in them. That "odd" house out is the old farmhouse. Many "old timers" complain, yet are happy at the conviences that used to not be there."
No one dislikes conveinence
"o acknowledge that in your arguments. The implication is that there are a finite, decreasing number of jobs (jobs we have left). In reality, this can grow. It has and does. Increasingly, in the West, you need to be a highly skilled worker. It was due to a lack of skill that my brother's company sent manufacturing over to Japan. The quality of the devices were MUCH better. R&D resumed in the US. The fact was that the Japanese workers had more experience, hence made fewer errors. These were connectivity devices (connecting Ipods to computers and TVs, ethernet converters, etc.)" So you are only proving my point that jobs can be kept in america. In this case japan is more developed with higher labour cost yet america was more costlier because of workers who lacked skills and knowledge. This is precisely my point, american worker are more skilled than chinese workers-roughly equally skilled with the japs but it depends on the industry-yet we are focusing on sending jobs away rather than research. I'm not arguing a finite amount of jobs but realize more than 30 million americans are looking for and have no job. Its irresponisble to add mor epeople until that number comes down alot.
"Again currently, 30 million...this number will change."
Up or down? Most economists are predicting that this will be a JOBLESS recovery as we are sending away all our jobs its unlikely that we will get any back.
"&D remained in the US since we had more skilled workers in this field. It comes down to skill and cost. Hence why certain jobs mostly likely will not be outsourced since the skill level is not seen in said countries and it would be too costly to move to other countries." You know they are outsourcing engineering and lawyers, soon the only fields left will be doctor, teacher or government worker
"No they are not outsourcing lawyers. You need to speak with your client and show up in court (depending on the type of lawyer). There are too few engineers in this country, hence why we import (not outsource).
"
Yes corporations are outsourcing lawyers to India, google it. there are plenty of engineers but it goes back to your point 4 vs 50 dollars. Companies are doing it with every job. Now they might hire 9 engineers in india and 1 in america for building a building. That american engineer just make sure the building comes out right and is there to see it.
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