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I'm sorry but I can't help but think how bad immigration. We are in the biggest recession since the great depression, and have 10-17% unemployment depending upon the state or province, yet both canada and american governments are bringing in legal immigrants like candy canes on christmas. I can't help but find it frustratiing that some companies are so quick to hire foreign workers from india or china, yet american/canadians cannot find jobs. I thought these employers were suppose to actually look for candidates in this country yet routinely i see foreign workers being hired without any interview even being held for nationals. I meet so many new residents/ immigrants who say america/canada is so great, and then i meet so much americans and canadians who can't even find a job
Well everyone is looking at negative side of immigration. Have you guys ever thought about contribution an immigrant make on economy and flow of money. Most of these immigrants from China and India come here on H1B. Around 40-50% process permanent residency and settle down permanently and rest go back to their home country. On an average these H1Bs make around 70K per year. They pay taxes, pay insurance, pay rent, shop from american stores etc etc. and The biggest is this social security tax they pay in 5-6 years of stay and once they go back they are never going to use this money and this money is used for SS benefits for Americans. Are they not creating jobs here as well by using services of americans. Definitely there will be less consumption of things hence less jobs if american population is 150 million not 330 million.
American companies sell their products in foreign coutries and shutdown many local businesses in those coutries. well no one then complains as these companies are creating more jobs here.
Accept it or hate it this globalization will keeps on growing and Immigrants will automatically stop coming once their country has better economic situation. Europeans don't come here any more as Euro is doing much better than USD.
"Originally Posted by jungeon What your not pointing out is that japan is overpopulated and that by 2100 there population will be 60 million because it has become too expensive to have children, most americans don't want to live like that. I don't know why you would even think for a second that Japan is not overpopulated because it is. Japan is a country where they have farms on top of roofs of high rise buildings and most people live in apartments. Its irresponsible to pack your country to the brim like that. People who live in the suburbs don't want to live like people in japan who pay $500,000 to live in a tiny cramped apartment with 1 kid and a souse. Also realize that Japan's land is much more fertile than any place in america and california is a desert and i destroying the environment by trying to support these huge populations.
"Not because it has "become too expensive to have children", but rather this is a trend seen in industrialized nations. Contraceptives and prevailing attitudes of not having children are huge factor. Overpopulation implies that the country is unable to sustain its population. Having the second largest economy in the world clearly proves otherwise. People who live in the suburbs may have to live like people in Japan. Remember that said suburbs were once farmlands (I know, I grew up in the Inland Empire). Things change. People now got used to the "dense" suburbs of houses on small quarter acre lots. Since CA is a desert, having suburban style housing is a bad idea in the first place. It's not the population aspect that is destroying the environment, but rather where we place our resources. Currently, our lawns and manicured planned communities are sucking up too much water." gee so people just have less children because they feel like having less children.No, I been to Italy and know many Italians a nation well known for having many children. Now no one has more than 1 kid there not because of contraceptives or even the high amount of abortions, its because no one can afford to have 5 kids anymore unless you make $120,000 or more annually and have a second income. Kids cost money and no one can afford it, thats why people have abortions, it ruins them economically to have too many kids sometimes even 1. I'd argue that if your country's population has peaked its damn near as over populated as it is going to get. I f no one in Japan wants to have more kids there must be a good reason=cost. Do you see any other desert with 40 million people living in it? No and theres good reason, any californian will tell you that they are overpopulated, not enough water, elcetrcity, running out of money and so on no jobs. etc run by gangs race war. Most people in my experience who live in suburbs are of recent immigrants not long timers. Very few people came from farms to live on suburbs who I know as it is hard to go from such a peaceful farm life to a hectic sub city life and i use to live in a semi farm region.
First off, CA is not all desert. Most of it's populated parts are a Mediterranean climate. Secondly, the Middle East (a true desert, has WELL over 40 million people living there...Iraq and Saudi Arabia alone account for nearly 60 million people). Water usage in CA is irresponsible. I promise you if you had half the lawns in CA, we would not be in a water crisis. We have enough electricity in CA. Money was wasted when our population was smaller. Also, crime decreased as our population rose.
Go to the Inland Empire. People sold their farms for housing. MANY communities have an odd looking house in them. That "odd" house out is the old farmhouse. Many "old timers" complain, yet are happy at the conviences that used to not be there.
"o acknowledge that in your arguments. The implication is that there are a finite, decreasing number of jobs (jobs we have left). In reality, this can grow. It has and does. Increasingly, in the West, you need to be a highly skilled worker. It was due to a lack of skill that my brother's company sent manufacturing over to Japan. The quality of the devices were MUCH better. R&D resumed in the US. The fact was that the Japanese workers had more experience, hence made fewer errors. These were connectivity devices (connecting Ipods to computers and TVs, ethernet converters, etc.)" So you are only proving my point that jobs can be kept in america. In this case japan is more developed with higher labour cost yet america was more costlier because of workers who lacked skills and knowledge. This is precisely my point, american worker are more skilled than chinese workers-roughly equally skilled with the japs but it depends on the industry-yet we are focusing on sending jobs away rather than research. I'm not arguing a finite amount of jobs but realize more than 30 million americans are looking for and have no job. Its irresponisble to add mor epeople until that number comes down alot.
Again currently, 30 million...this number will change.
"&D remained in the US since we had more skilled workers in this field. It comes down to skill and cost. Hence why certain jobs mostly likely will not be outsourced since the skill level is not seen in said countries and it would be too costly to move to other countries." You know they are outsourcing engineering and lawyers, soon the only fields left will be doctor, teacher or government worker
No they are not outsourcing lawyers. You need to speak with your client and show up in court (depending on the type of lawyer). There are too few engineers in this country, hence why we import (not outsource).
Well everyone is looking at negative side of immigration. Have you guys ever thought about contribution an immigrant make on economy and flow of money. Most of these immigrants from China and India come here on H1B. Around 40-50% process permanent residency and settle down permanently and rest go back to their home country. On an average these H1Bs make around 70K per year. They pay taxes, pay insurance, pay rent, shop from american stores etc etc. and The biggest is this social security tax they pay in 5-6 years of stay and once they go back they are never going to use this money and this money is used for SS benefits for Americans. Are they not creating jobs here as well by using services of americans. Definitely there will be less consumption of things hence less jobs if american population is 150 million not 330 million.
American companies sell their products in foreign coutries and shutdown many local businesses in those coutries. well no one then complains as these companies are creating more jobs here.
Accept it or hate it this globalization will keeps on growing and Immigrants will automatically stop coming once their country has better economic situation. Europeans don't come here any more as Euro is doing much better than USD.
I tend to think its better to live in a country with full employment than one with 30 million people with no job who are just sitting around watching all these immigrants come in, its asking for trouble. They need to stop adding more. Its not about protectionism its about common sense. dont spend money you dont have dont let more people into your country or hire foriegn workers when tehre are ones here but you have not looked.
Thats my point exactly immigrants come here and take away our good 70k jobs, they should take away the crumby jobs like the mexicans are doing. Mexicans=good immigrants whereas those guys taking the professional jobs=bad immigrant. the worse part is the jobs they make go away when they leave, whereas reall americans never leave so their jobs stay here.
As can be seen from the responses on this thread, there is no 'Answer.' One's perspective severely skews one's response. If a Native American from 500 years ago had been asked the question and would somehow have known what the future held, what would have been his/her response? Ask the same question to the people coming in from Europe at the time; what would their answer have been? Certainly not the same. The same applies today.
Personally, my opinion is that we have no right condemning immigration at this point because nearly all of us are here because of an immigrant somewhere along the line. Pretty hypocritical to condemn it now. If it's bad now, well, it was bad 500 years ago for somebody too.
This country is no more overpopulated than any other country. And if your sacred lifestyle is changed over it... well gee, lot's of lifestyles were changed in the past--and much more radically than yours, I'm sure.
BTW, I'm not talking about illegal immigration. That's another topic altogether.
they should take away the crumby jobs like the mexicans are doing. Mexicans=good immigrants whereas those guys taking the professional jobs=bad immigrant. the worse part is the jobs they make go away when they leave, whereas reall americans never leave so their jobs stay here.
i don't think that's right either. that's pretty unethical as well. how about americans do the crummy jobs as well. this 'foreigner do crummy and dangerous job' is very assinine and speaks of inhumane attitudes period.
lots of esl teachers go to korea for perks and jobs, i don't see them recruiting americans or 'whites' for the most crummy, low, or unwanted jobs. clean your own toilets as well. what makes you think it's okay to have all the good jobs and give the bad jobs to outsiders, whether in or outside your country? that's a rhetorical question because that's akin to just bad treatment.
It was in my international business textbook. i don't have any links but you should get something off google.
Yes 90% of companies from the west who go to china lose money. The main reasons why is because: -chinese people buy different things from us that don't seem obvious
-china has capital restircitions because of its fixed currency
-bribes and corruption and failure to understand who and when to bribe, 3 or 4 people might comeby and say give me $10k or i shut you down but only 1 may really have the power to do so
-chinese workers are not american workers, don't understand machines as well, can't speak or read english-not the ones who will work for $4 /hr anyways have to be trained=added expense
-chinese workers also expect to be feed and housed and if you don't do it they show up late and cost business
Basically china is not america and if you don't understand chinese culture your business does bad. people think they can go into china and pay $4 an hour and they get greedy and salivate at the lips, but they don't think of all the cost like building a factory from the ground up buying land, shipping cost which are alot nowadays, all these add to cost, fixed cost which decrease the valuation of a company. The only reason anyone relocates to china is as some people say here, $4 hr if you have high labour cost
But what does this to do with outsourcing? I think you have many issues in your mind and you end up mixing them up. Outsourcing, immigration, foreign investment are all different issues.
Let me give you the basics so that in the future you can come up with more complete thoughts.
Outsourcing is moving the production to another country. Realize that whatever the tastes of that country have nothing to do with the success of outsourcing as you still cater your previous market, not necessarily the new country. Example: Apple moving Ipod production to China, Dell moving call-centers to India.
Immigration is the movement of labor from one country to another. Firms, looking for cheaper labor, use outsourcing and foreign labor via immigration to reduce costs. However, these two have different implications in terms of domestic GDP.
Foreign Investment is a total different animal (though outsourcing is a small part of it). It includes production in a foreign country to cater that country's population. Here some companies get it right and succeed (just as many start-up firms succeed or fail) while many fail. The 90% number is probably from there and I am not surprised a bit. I would say even domestic firms have similar numbers. KFC, for example, hit it big in China.
In terms of currency, fixed exchange rate provides security for foreign investors. I am sure they are happy with it. It is our government who is not happy with the situation as it results a persistent trade deficit for us.
In terms of productivity of Chinese workers, I have to say someone did a trick on you. They work in quite inhumane conditions for next to nothing. That is the main reason why Chinese products are so cheap. Lazy demanding Chinese workers? LOL. That made me laugh.
Take away the crumby jobs? Ha, I have news for you: those 'crumby' jobs tend to be the most important in keeping our civilization going. We all tend to think that everyone should be a rocket scientist. Won't work. We really don't need all that many rocket scientists. Or lawyers. Or accountants. Or desk jockeys. Or government thugs inventing ways to more efficiently fleece us.
Try having your town go without a garbage collector for a month; see what happens. Try not having someone picking the fruit or produce that you eat for a few months; see what happens. I don't find 'crumby' jobs crumby at all. I'm thankful that somebody does them and the way I see it, those jobs should all pay much better than they do. The people doing those crumby jobs actually keep me alive. Rather than looking down our noses at these people and demonizing them, we ought to be thanking them.
Just to add my 2 cents. The world is not black and white. Neither this issue. One has to look at all aspects, understand the reasons, as well as alternatives. Let's start with illegal immigrants:
- Let's say they are bad for the economy. Assume their costs far exceed their benefits. The question becomes how to stop it. What is the extent we are willing to go to stop illegal immigration. We are talking about almost 2000 miles of borders we need to cover. We are also talking about making the mobility more difficult through visas etc. between the two countries. What are the costs associated with it and whether it is worth to pursue going after them given the costs.
- Most of the time, we are just looking at the available employment as a fixed number. Unfortunately, it is not only general public or politicians that does this. Even many economists go that route when needed in order to support their agenda. Consider the businesses that directly cater immigrants, ie wire transfers, ethnic supermarkets etc. Their mere existence are directly related to immigrants. Those jobs are not existent without immigrants.
- Take agriculture, the main magnet of illegal and/or low skilled immigrant labor. The whole industry survives with heavy subsidies plus cheap labor. Take one of them away and the industry ceases to exist. It is really naive to just say those jobs will be taken by Americans at the right price. At the right price, production costs will be so high so that those firms will not be able to compete with their foreign counterparts and cease to exist. Again, I am not suggesting that we should continue to do what we are doing, but I acknowledge that these jobs will not be simply available to natives once immigrant labor is gone. Another simple example is domestic service jobs (think nannies). It is well-documented that they are more commonly used in immigrant heavy states, ie California. Why? Because they are cheaply available by immigrants. Getting rid of them does not mean they will be filled by natives.
- Lastly skilled migration. I have yet to see a convincing study that suggest skilled migration increases unemployment. Benefits are limitless. What we are essentially doing is we are adding highly trained, highly educated population from other countries without spending a dime on years of schooling that they have readily taken from their own country. But let's again assume they are also hurting the economy. What is the alternative? From firms' perspective, skilled immigration and outsourcing are substitutes. Do we prefer the capital also leave the country or do we prefer at least a large portion of the earnings by the immigrants spent domestically and become a part of the economy?
I hold mixed feelings about immigration. I think there are some realities that we white caucasian Americans don't want to face. Here are a few:
1. Most (not all of us) feel we are too good to do certain jobs.
2. Many of us do work hard, but try asking us to work on a weekend or a holiday, put in overtime, or work outdoors when the weather isn't good. You'll get alot of resistance. (This is unrealistic because the world doesn't stop running after 5:00 p.m.)
3. Most of us don't want our children to grow up to be dishwashers, nursing aides, or trash collectors. We might let our kids do this sort of work during the summer while they are going to school, but afterwards? No way. We want them doing other work that we haven't stigmatized.
4. Many of us our engaged in what I will call "questionable pursuits" that don't get our hands dirty. A few examples are: the single mother who scalps tickets to supplement her living; the guy who goes to foreclosure sales or flips properties in his spare time; and those who participate in the numerous "multi-level marketing schemes" that are out there. None of this so-called "work" adds any value to the economy at all. Yet, I see too many of white caucasian, non-immigrant friends doing this instead of the hard work many immigrants do.
5. We Americans want cheap food and clothing at Walmart and will scream if we don't get it. At the same time, we think we should get huge wages for the work that we do. This is a paradox. We can't all have high wages this way. In order to have those high wages, the prices at Walmart and elsewhere would have to go up.
When I think of all this, I have trouble blaming the immigrants. Its not true that every job they take isn't desired by someone who is a citizen, but it is true that employers often have alot of trouble finding citizens who will take them. And, often when they do, that person quits after a short time or is generally much less productive in the job than an immigrant is.
Its probably not what some want to hear. It is a reality.
I don't believe that every person who wants to come to America has a right to do so. However, I do think immigration laws need to take into account that we need a functioning economy. I'm not sure we'd have one without immigrants.
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