Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I'll give a recent example. I'm walking down a busy road when out of nowhere someone tosses a drink at me. Add to that random people in passerby cars who scream things just for the hell of it. Such behavior would be unthinkable in my home country (by the way I'm from a small European country). I also know bored suburban teenagers who have nothing better to do on weekend nights than to go out and vandalize people's property. Most of them do drugs, which also seems to be the norm in this country. I've never encountered such a high degree of inconsiderate idiocy as I have in this country. What is it about your society that produces such degenerates? I expected Americans to be a civilized people.
First, those that throw things at strangers are idiots. No question. And yes, without a doubt, we have many, many of these.
Second, screaming? Hmm...football matches in Europe showcase much ugliness, death, beatings, attacks with knives and pipes, deeply-embedded racism one no longer sees to that extent in the US). Screaming here and there? Who cares?
Third, suburban boredom. Yes, shocking. Comes from the parents who are too busy trying to remain teenagers and less time parenting kids to be responsible.
Fourth, most do drugs? No. Too much drinking. Not as bad as in the UK, but bad.
Fifth, inconsiderate idiocy? Yes, cannot argue. More here in the US than anywhere else.
Sixth, civilized. Hmmm. I would not go so far.
Our form of idiocy is childish but often harmless. Perhaps it is this idiocy and venting of frustration that prevents a country of great mobility, competition, and freedom from exploding in the kind of violence that led to WW1 and WW2 in Europe.
The FBI estimates that there are approximately 350 million guns in the US. Keep this in mind when examining the crime stats.
And yes, one can buy an AK-47 for $200 fairly easily in a number of states.
Despite so much access to cause instant death, murder rates are only
4.0 times that of Denmark
2.5 times that France
1.5 times that of Finland
It is
1.3 times LESS that of Poland
4.7 times LESS that of Russia
Given the guns and public perception, one would think that US violent crime is 100 times that of Europe. But this is not so.
Why not?
1) Exposure to choice, including the choice to be stupid, idiotic, or violent offers up the chance for the individual to be responsible.
2) Everything horrible in and about the US is plain to see and wholly transparent. This is not the case in Europe, where dirty little secrets are understood but unspoken. It is hushed up almost everywhere else.
3) We do not engineer socially. This means that people are "free to lose." If someone wants to squander their fortune, look like a buffoon, or do something stupid to being injury to oneself, they are permitted to do so under the law. Although this "right" is under siege in many places, in general we try to avoid the temptation to impose a particular code of civility on our citizens. Unfortunately, this "freedom" implies that some will choose to act like 5 year old ruffians instead of classy men and women.
4) The initial endowment provided for my our British, French, Dutch, German, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and Mexican ancestry, left us with the awful legacy of racism and violence.
Yet despite all this, some of the classiest people I have ever met are Americans. There are plenty of civilized Americans many of whom with far more civilized perspectives than civilized Europeans. So one picks one;s company, no?
If you spend more time in the US, you will learn to avoid the degenerates. You will learn to spend more time with people who possess the level of civility you seek. At the same time, when back in the old country, consider spending time in its seedier and more degenerate districts. And imagine you were a foreigner. What an image that would make!
There is no way to defend the actions of a few idiots and louts. However, when you try and label an entire country of 306 million as uncivilized, then you had really ought to put everything on the table. If you do so, you soon will find it is not so clear anymore to denigrate the US in such a wholesale manner.
There is no way to defend the actions of a few idiots and louts. However, when you try and label an entire country of 306 million as uncivilized, then you had really ought to put everything on the table. If you do so, you soon will find it is not so clear anymore to denigrate the US in such a wholesale manner.
Just some perspective,
S.
i'm sorry but they are kind of right. it's not about degenerate and nondegenerate, because that exists everywhere.
it's that overall there is a lot of people who think it's okay to be rude in general. it's that way in some other countries too but not all of them. for instance, japanese in general are more civilized in manner.
since america has such a big reputation, it might surprise people. it's common to get poor or bad customer service or just rude treatment in general. it's even in the general mannerisms of people and the way they express themselves.
in america, it's common for people to use more profanity in everyday conversation too. in some societies it is not as common.
i'm sorry but they are kind of right. it's not about degenerate and nondegenerate, because that exists everywhere.
it's that overall there is a lot of people who think it's okay to be rude in general. it's that way in some other countries too but not all of them. for instance, japanese in general are more civilized in manner.
since america has such a big reputation, it might surprise people. it's common to get poor or bad customer service or just rude treatment in general. it's even in the general mannerisms of people and the way they express themselves.
in america, it's common for people to use more profanity in everyday conversation too. in some societies it is not as common.
Again, one needs to define civility. Japan: very polite to be sure. However, on commuter trains: groping of women is extremely common; there are vending machines of used girls' panties for "civilized" men to sniff; entire economies in SE Asia depend on sex tourism from Japan.
In Hong Kong, we see acid attacks on subways. We all have our problems with civility.
America's reputation is an interesting thing. Most of that reputation is in the heads of foreigners. They believe in an American from TV and movies and never bother to learn about the great diversity (of everything) across the country.
Service: are you kidding me? Try living in Korea or China and tell me about customer service. France? I find the customer service in the US to be quite good.
Are there rude people? Of course. Are there polite people? Absolutely.
Use of profanity....are you serious? If you converse in the local language, you will find it peppered with many denigrating comments over race, gender, etc. But in English? Unlikely.
Live around the world a bit more. The only thing that is different about the US is that the spread of possible behaviors is much greater than elsewhere. This means, some great individuals mixed in with some considerable filth. The mistake is to assume that other countries are free from their own distribution of rudeness.
Final comments: in all research I have seen on tourism cites American friendliness as one of the most positive aspects of American tourists. Worldwide, the US is known for its friendliness and the compassion of its people as evidenced by private charitable donation. We do not leave it up to government to give.
S.
P.S. Note that I am very fond of the Japanese. But their society is not free from elements that lack of civility!
Unfortunately, the NationMaster statistics lowball the US rate. According to the FBI, the homicide rate in 2008 was 5.4 per 100,000 in the US; not 4.2.
heh. i grew up in a very religious, churchgoing household but it was abusive behind closed doors. also, they are and were very social people. they had a facade of being good people in public and it was nothing like that behind closed doors. there was no materialism given to children but it was spent on parent's desires and ther was no love or discipline. what they called discipline was just subtle and blatant abuse. i had no rights and was violated totally. it's amazing how night and day it really was and how good they were at their deception. i'm still amazed that people are so fake. they also didn't do drugs or booze yet they were horrible people. i was never loved, given proper guidance but i was preached to all the while i was abused, even sexually. i ended up in counseling and even homeless as i had so much issues to work out. they didn't like others to know i was homeless because it made them look bad but not out of concern for me or anyone else.
it's not just those things you list. it's not just 'permissiveness' or materialism etc. the lies of people and facades people have are many. it's just about good or bad people, period!
I am sorry to read about your childhood, rory00. And glad that you've overcome its weight.
There is unconsciousness and children are the ones most vulnerable to it.
And some of them are acting out badly.
Often such horrors are possible for people cleverly assume various masks to gain respectabily and good standing in their community. Religion is one of them. Of course, religion is not meant to act as cover for unconscious people, but offer a path to peace and harmony for many. And, as we know, unconscious people use everything at their disposal to hide their darkness.
Your story is not American, it is an universal one. Tragically, such things do happen everywhere. God bless.
Last edited by learningCA; 02-14-2010 at 02:11 PM..
I absolutely agree and have wondered the same thing myself for a long time. It's gotten much worse and people have turned more idiotic, rude, and savage.. just in the past 10 years or so. It's not your imagination! As to why.....? Wish I knew. Well, here's some ideas off the top of my head:
Breakdown of the family (deadbeat dads & moms, or no extended family support network)
Religious values no longer holding the community's morality in place (and yes I'm agnostic, for lack of
a better word)
Many permissive parents & social institutions don't teach basic manners or etiquette anymore,
humility, discipline, or sense of right & wrong
Industrialization=the devaluation of the community, People don't have a strong sense of community
anymore nor do they seem to care about their neighbors (and the way most neighbors are, who'd
want to?)..
Malls/shopping/materialism have taken the place of social groups of the past
The dominance of the automobile (discuss..! or, not.. just my own theory)
The pathetic state of public schools (the American govt has not invested adequately in that in
recent years, but somehow finds a way to spend billions on other things)
Rampant capitalism and total freedom of speech means anyone can put any kind of trash out there
to make money, so young people grow up essentially surrounded by mainstream porn, violence,
self-absorbed instant gratification mentality, and so on...
Not enough funding (and respect!) for law enforcement, so they can do their job which is to keep
citizens safe and keep the scum off the streets. (But even if that were the case, people would
whine and complain even more about the increased police presence and make them out to be the
bad guys.. So you can't win.)
TV, drugs & booze, and now computers.
Oh and let's not forget unhealthy food & other stuff in the environment making people crazy and stupid.
And probably lots of other things.
Nothing is all bad, all good, or black & white. I just think these things have had the most negative impact on American society, and sometimes I don't even recognize my own countrymen (or humanity in general) anymore.
I'll give a recent example. I'm walking down a busy road when out of nowhere someone tosses a drink at me. Add to that random people in passerby cars who scream things just for the hell of it. Such behavior would be unthinkable in my home country (by the way I'm from a small European country). I also know bored suburban teenagers who have nothing better to do on weekend nights than to go out and vandalize people's property. Most of them do drugs, which also seems to be the norm in this country. I've never encountered such a high degree of inconsiderate idiocy as I have in this country. What is it about your society that produces such degenerates? I expected Americans to be a civilized people.
I haven't read all the posts here, and I won't comment to your post specifically, but here's my .02 worth.
America has historically had higher rates of alcoholism, drug abuse, and violent crime than most Western European countries. I tend to think it's partly because of our individualistic attitude. We expect people to be able to do everything themselves, with minimal or no social support from family, etc. Or we go the other exreme, and think handouts from the government, with nothing expected of the individual, are going to fix it all; when often this kind of thing just enables people to keep doing the things that casused their problems in the first place.
Americans are also much more mobile than people in other countries. We think nothing of moving 1,000 miles or more away for a job, etc, meaning we often don't live near relatives or close, lifelong, friends. Also, even within cities and metro areas, people move a lot and often don't know their neighbors. Hence, people don't develop the deep, lifelong friendships that people who live in close proximity to each other their whole lives do. We also tend to value money and the things money can buy over time with family and friends.
In other parts of the world, even in cities, people are more likely to stay closer to friends and family in the communities where they grew up.
The American way of doing things isn't always a bad thing, but it often comes at the high cost of a lack of family and community ties....which leads to higher crime, drug abuse, etc.
I also think we have a BIG problem with extremist thinking. Doesn't matter if it's liberal or conservative. America seems to have trouble steering a moderate course in most endeavors. It's always this kind of "my way or the highway" attitude and always blaming "the other group" for all the problems. These boards (even this thread) are full of posts like that. This also creates an unhealthy division among people and thus, more social disconnect. When one brand of extremism is abandoned (Bush), we go to the opposite extreme (Obama).
uh, all those things you list and more could be added to it. do you think bad or degenerate people is something new? even before technology, tv etc people were bad because it is about "nature", repeat "nature." all those other projections are frivolous symptoms but not the real cause. everything you've listed has always existed besides the tv or whatever.
religion or not, has little to do with good behavior or even one's true morals. people find ways to show thier true colors and twist anything to justify what they want to do. the worst human beings i personally know is in thier fifities and sixties and are religious right wing bigots. so this bs that it's just because of current society or technology or whatever i hear repeated is ridiculous. bad people have always existed, religous or not.
i don't agree it can't get better because in reality society was never without plenty of bad people past or present. you don't even have to look at world history to know that but just the history of america and all the trials and tribulations and all the good and bad people who formed it. the good people changing things for the better and fighting evil.
Youre right, the practice of doing religious things/going thru the motions doesnt affect character or morals in a person ... but a real dynamic personal relationship with the Creator based on Christs historical atoning death which pays for ones total sins --- the gratitude and power of God working in ones life allows for a true inward change of the heart ...something which religion or no book could ever accomplish. WHen America wanted God as its foundation, there was civility and order in society by and large ; since thats been replaced by narcisstic and hedonistic philosophies of our day, the repercussions are played out in american society daily . You see, people either make themselves to be god or they give the due honor and respect to the real Creator of the Cosmos -- the previous being displayed in definitive and willful acts of rebellion on a very large national scale.
007.5, you are not the first one who tries to hijack this and most other threads to make political points, sir.
The fact, pointed out by others in this thread as well, is that there were no golden times of harmony and lack of crime in America. In every time past there were some who used whatever means to further a political agenda.
Crime. During the mid–seventeenth century, public officials in Puritan Massachusetts expressed fears that crime and disorder were tearing apart the fabric of society. Nearly three and a half centuries later, prominent observers made similar claims, reporting that crime was surging and undermining public order. For Puritans, however, the criminality consisted not of mugging, murder, and crack‐cocaine use, but of fornication, Sabbath‐breaking, and tippling (excessive drinking). Although commentators in virtually every era have insisted that crime had reached epidemic proportions, the history of crime in America is not the story of ever‐increasing rates of disorder. Rather, both the level and the character of crime have changed along with America society. Shifting patterns of crime, therefore, provide an important perspective on the development of American society.
Over time, levels of criminal behavior have waxed and waned. Homicide, for instance, has been far more common in some periods of American history than in others, and the contexts that sparked lethal violence have changed dramatically during the four centuries since Europeans established settlements in North America. Similarly, urban riots have punctuated some eras and virtually disappeared in others.
Last edited by learningCA; 02-14-2010 at 04:56 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
