Confederate Statue defaced with paint at courthouse in Huntsville. (Black: live in, move)

[MisterEd51]

Originally Posted by Threestep2

Not everyone pays taxes.

Not everyone pays income taxes but everyone pays sales taxes.

[green_mariner]

Originally Posted by y8tiger

I find it ironic and somewhat amusing that this 115 year old Historical Monument in Huntsville has you all in a tizzy up there in the North.

Let us not forget that there is a reason the Civil War is also known as the War of Northern Aggression.

God have mercy if you saw Stone Mountain in GA.

Come to think of it, you probably have never seen a Sons of Confederate Veterans (SCV) License Plate.

As for me, I Love living in the Heart of Dixie and I also enjoy celebrating Columbus Day every year.

I find it more ironic that you think this is just a northern thing. There are plenty of Black southerners who do not like the Confederate flag. In fact, a majority of Blacks are southerners. And a majority of Blacks do not like Confederate monuments or Confederate flags. If it was truly southern heritage, all southerners, Black, White,etc, would embrace it. That there are hardly any Blacks flying Confederate flags.

I've seen a SCV license plate. I've seen Confederate flags and Confederate flags. And I've seen Stone Mountain. I think it's ugly. I've spent a majority of my life in the South. My mother is a southerner. She hates the Confederate flag too.

[green_mariner]

Originally Posted by Justacoolguy

A lot of hard truths being spoken here.

Indeed. You recognize some facts. The UDC spread these lies about the Confederacy. It put the lies in textbooks. It was also influential in getting certain individuals to review textbooks. The textbooks weren't allowed to say anything that could be deemed as bad about the South. Textbooks that suggested that slavery was a cruel institution were rejected. Textbooks that state slavery as part of why the South wanted secession were rejected. The Lost Cause myth goes beyond statues. It went into the textbooks. This wasn't some dirty secret. Some people just didn't want to hear it.

[Justacoolguy]

Originally Posted by green_mariner

Indeed. You recognize some facts. The UDC spread these lies about the Confederacy. It put the lies in textbooks. It was also influential in getting certain individuals to review textbooks. The textbooks weren't allowed to say anything that could be deemed as bad about the South. Textbooks that suggested that slavery was a cruel institution were rejected. Textbooks that state slavery as part of why the South wanted secession were rejected. The Lost Cause myth goes beyond statues. It went into the textbooks. This wasn't some dirty secret. Some people just didn't want to hear it.

All anyone has to do is read the article of secession. You cannot separate the power brokers of that era from the desire to keep slavery legal. Sure there were tons of southerners who joined up to fight to protect their state. Some also joined because they were forced to serve. There were significant war crimes against innocent southerners as well, probably fanned the flames of secessionist sentiment and contributed heavily to the post war violence against carpet baggers and newly freed southern blacks. This is a highly controversial history that means a lot to a lot of people.

Bottom line, black people were treated as animals until the 1960s in the south. To ignore this is a crime against decency in my book.

[y8tiger]

Originally Posted by green_mariner

I find it more ironic that you think this is just a northern thing. There are plenty of Black southerners who do not like the Confederate flag. In fact, a majority of Blacks are southerners. And a majority of Blacks do not like Confederate monuments or Confederate flags. If it was truly southern heritage, all southerners, Black, White,etc, would embrace it. That there are hardly any Blacks flying Confederate flags.

I've seen a SCV license plate. I've seen Confederate flags and Confederate flags. And I've seen Stone Mountain. I think it's ugly. I've spent a majority of my life in the South. My mother is a southerner. She hates the Confederate flag too.

If you notice the quote you will see that I was replying to the Yankee above.

That there are hardly any Blacks flying Confederate flags.

A simple google image search resulted in About 10,900,000 results (0.60 seconds).

I also think you will find more people than not find Stone Mountain as beautiful with it's extremely popular Laser show and museum.

I understand that these are your personal feelings, but I do not concur with your viewpoint.

[y8tiger]

Originally Posted by Justacoolguy

All anyone has to do is read the article of secession. You cannot separate the power brokers of that era from the desire to keep slavery legal. Sure there were tons of southerners who joined up to fight to protect their state. Some also joined because they were forced to serve. There were significant war crimes against innocent southerners as well, probably fanned the flames of secessionist sentiment and contributed heavily to the post war violence against carpet baggers and newly freed southern blacks. This is a highly controversial history that means a lot to a lot of people.

Bottom line, black people were treated as animals until the 1960s in the south. To ignore this is a crime against decency in my book.

Inline with your post,

"Objective historians realize the reasons for secession and the reasons the average Rebel soldier fought are not the same. William C. “Jack” Davis, for example, writes: “The widespread Northern myth that the Confederates went to the battlefield to perpetuate slavery is just that, a myth. Their letters and diaries, in the tens of thousands, reveal again and again that they fought and died because their Southern homeland was invaded and their natural instinct was to protect home and hearth.” Only about thirty percent of Southern families owned slaves and fewer than ten percent of individuals held title to them.
While Davis supports his opinion with letters and diaries, mere common sense implies how improbable it would have been for the typical Southerner to leave his family, risk his life, endure army-life hardships, and kill others who had done him no harm simply to protect slave property owned mostly by wealthy planters. Only a propagandist could suggest that it was a prime motivation."

General Robert E. Lee is one of the best examples of this. President Ford said, "Lee's dedication to his native State of Virginia chartered his course for the bitter Civil War years, causing him to reluctantly resign from a distinguished career in the United States Army and to serve as General of the Army of Northern Virginia."

The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers still recognizes General Lee's contributions.

https://www.usace.army.mil/About/His...-Robert-E-Lee/

[green_mariner]

Originally Posted by Justacoolguy

All anyone has to do is read the article of secession. You cannot separate the power brokers of that era from the desire to keep slavery legal. Sure there were tons of southerners who joined up to fight to protect their state. Some also joined because they were forced to serve. There were significant war crimes against innocent southerners as well, probably fanned the flames of secessionist sentiment and contributed heavily to the post war violence against carpet baggers and newly freed southern blacks. This is a highly controversial history that means a lot to a lot of people.

Bottom line, black people were treated as animals until the 1960s in the south. To ignore this is a crime against decency in my book.

You don't even have to do that. Reading the Cornerstone Speech by Alexander Stephens spells it out too. At the end of the day, the desire to keep slavery is what got the ball rolling. It was the fear of losing slavery that drove the desire for secession, and later a war.

Every war has its war crimes. Had the war been ended the right way, war criminals would have been punished.

Jim Crow was basically the South's attempt at re-establishing the racist social order perpetuated under slavery. The rest of America was discriminating and doing racist things. In the South, Blacks were indeed treated horribly. And it was something that grew out of the ashes of the post-bellum/post-Reconstruction era.

[Hiruko]

Originally Posted by MisterEd51

Good grief. Some people just don't get it. It has nothing to do with what people did in the past was right or wrong. It has to do with preserving history. History should be a display of our past showing both the good and the bad. By showing both side maybe we can learn to avoid the mistakes of the past.

The American left and younger people (I'm a Millennial) more often have a black and white worldview than those that are older. I am baffled by people who think that the presence of a statue or name, especially something from many decades, even more than a century ago, represents an endorsement or celebration of everything (if anything) that person was involved in.

[OmarLittle]

Originally Posted by Hiruko

...I am baffled by people who think that the presence of a statue or name, especially something from many decades, even more than a century ago, represents an endorsement or celebration of everything (if anything) that person was involved in.

Originally Posted by MisterEd51

Good grief. Some people just don't get it. It has nothing to do with what people did in the past was right or wrong. It has to do with preserving history. History should be a display of our past showing both the good and the bad. By showing both side maybe we can learn to avoid the mistakes of the past.

Yes, history should be preserved. Uh, accurate history, not fake history. But this entire thread illustrates the problem of "preserving" history with statues in a courthouse square or with the stars and bars as part of a state flag. That perpetuates the myth that the confederacy was a noble cause. (It was not).

Originally Posted by dwhisent

...They were not fighting for slavery, they had no slaves. They weren't traitors if they were fighting for their own homes....

Sure...plenty of people who fought for the Confederacy may not have owned slaves, but that doesn't change the fact that they fought for a cause that was fundamentally unjust and immoral. Remember them, but don't celebrate their cause. Post-war Germany has managed to surmount this hurdle; hopefully it won't take another century for Alabama to do the same.

[Threestep2]

Originally Posted by OmarLittle

Yes, history should be preserved. Uh, accurate history, not fake history. But this entire thread illustrates the problem of "preserving" history with statues in a courthouse square or with the stars and bars as part of a state flag. That perpetuates the myth that the confederacy was a noble cause. (It was not).



Sure...plenty of people who fought for the Confederacy may not have owned slaves, but that doesn't change the fact that they fought for a cause that was fundamentally unjust and immoral. Remember them, but don't celebrate their cause. Post-war Germany has managed to surmount this hurdle; hopefully it won't take another century for Alabama to do the same.

You do not follow German news, do you?