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Rather than get into a 'cat fight' here going over the fine points of anti-illegal sentiment in US society...(or the lack of it....or why it makes sense, or doesn't), perhaps we could look at anti-illegal sentiment in this society by comparing it with a similar dynamic in another society.
Let's use Mexico....it's nearby, furnishes the bulk of our present-day illegals, is usually cited on these forums, has a LONG history with the US, and is probably a good country to use in this type of comparison.
Each year Mexico experiences a massive invasion of rowdy, not-too-responsible young Americans in its annual 'Spring Break' rite at many coastal resort communities. These folks may be fine as individuals, but as a huge group could probably be charitably described as loud, boisterous, and nearly totally insensitive to Mexican culture and norms. Relatively few of them speak Spanish; few show any interest in Mexico as a nation. They're there not to 'fit in', but to party, drink, get 'crazy', and generally do things they can't get away with at home.
In accomodating all this, the local Mexicans have had to make choices. Many are forced to pick up at least SOME English, in order to work in this 'industry'. Law enforcement is forced to deal with the rowdies, and I'm sure many low-level resort employees find themselves dealing with a certain amount of disrspect and insensitivity from these 'guests'. I'm sure the word 'obnoxious' wouldn't be too much of a stretch in describing at least SOME of thess foreigners who invade Mexico each year.
We do know that all-in-all, the local Mexicans tolerate the situation fairly well, manage to act graciously toward these outsiders, and that the experience is GENERALLY a positive one, with little apparent 'anti-tourist' sentiment resulting.
WHY do Mexicans seem so receptive to this crowd of noisy foreign revelers, and why don't more people resent them, their disinterest in the 'real' Mexico, and their disruptive presence? In my opinion, for TWO reasons:
(1) These young people may be obnoxious, but they bring a TON of money into the local economy. Entire INDUSTRIES rely on them, and people like them, for thousands upon thousands of jobs. The injection of 'dollars' into the area is easy to see, affects 'real people', and the results, economically, are pretty visible...despite any reservations people might otherwise have.
(2) More importantly, perhaps, is that regardless of how boorish and oafish some of these 'party animals' may be, everyone is acutely aware of the fact that sooner or later, when the money runs out, these people are GOING HOME!! They are a 'temporary' invasion, their presence is highly transitory, and they present no permanent 'burden' on Mexican society. They make no permanent demands, either.
WE may well ask ourselves, what would happen if this huge invasion of unassimilated foreigners (gringo college kids), arrived one year not 'flush with cash', but broke and penniless? What if they had no money to 'spread around', but instead looked for jobs...or even social services? What if, instead of 'going home' in a week, thousands of them decided to STAY in Mexico...defying the locals and making clear that "we're here, and you CAN'T get rid of us....so just get used to us".
My gut feeling is that if that happened, we MIGHT see a huge uprising of 'anti-illegal' sentiment among the Mexican population....in fact, I'd almost bet on it. Would we then say the Mexicans were 'racist'..or 'xenophobic'...or 'nativist'? Maybe...but I think mostly we'd realize they just resented their country being invaded by outsiders who had no desire anytime soon to ever 'become Mexicans', but who just wanted to stay for the benefits, and because they 'could'.
Perhaps by considering the above hypothetical scenario, we could better understand the anti-illegal sentiments here...where large numbers of 'outsiders' arrive, with NO money to offer our economy, NO visible benefit to our society, NO plans to return home, and NO interest in assimilating to 'our' society, however you want to define that term. The above situation in Mexico was hypothetical; the situation here is quite real.
We have en-masse illegal immigration for a lot of reasons, most of them quite obvious: The USA is pretty much the only place where the 1st World borders on the 3rd World. We do not enforce our own laws. A great many people simply cannot comprehend the simple, elementary difference between Legal and Illegal and thus enable the latter.
So it's not also becasue of the fact that laws aren't reflective of the situation? Only 30,000 ag visas in a nation that has the plurality of illegal immigrants in agriculture. The quotas are out of whack with the amount needed. This is just one example. Obviously, the quota (part of the law) doesn't reflect the situation.
No, we have to enfore the system. Then it will work.
We would need to change a good deal of the system. It isn't working. The quotas, the wait times, aren't working.
You did not ask for a risk benefit analysis- save the nomenklature already. You are trying to justify ignoring the law. Doing so has consequences. The law is there for a reason. Your dislike of a certain law does not mean you can dismiss it. That is straight out of the Dog Ate My Homework School of Discourse.
I didn't dismiss it. I simply stated that laws themselves are not stopping anyone. You premise was that laws, in of themselves, stop a person from doing an action. I pointed it's more complicated than that. Sorry if you didn't think a little outside the box.
Currently. As in while Mexico is a third world nation. Thus, not everyone in Mexico has the means to come here.
The majority of Americans want to move out of where they currently live...that doesn't equate to them actually moving.
Mexico is a large and resource rich nation. Why do they not work to improve themselves? Why not emphasize ending illiteracy, promoting education and good family planning, and most of all, ending systemic corruption? Then Mexico could take its place amongst rich nations.
Do you know about the 1980s Wolrd Bank support that sold off state enterprises in Mexico? Essentially it led to increased disparity of income. The World Bank is essentially dominated by United States interest. Is it a suprise that what followed was the rise of the maquiladoras...which payed poverty level wages as well as polluted neighboring towns?
Mexico is dominated by US economic interests. The money from the north funds much of the current corruption. It's the same in most of the 3rd world.
Yes really...unless you can explain how the USA taking more legal immigrants than the rest of the world combined is somehow not generous. You are going to have to work hard and really explain that as I doubt there is anything in the universe that would convince any reasonable person that is ungenerous.
It's about as generous as a person who destroys your home (neo-colonialism), but leaves $40 for a night at a motel 6. The US's immigration policy can be highly contradictory at times and simply inefficient. I wouldn't call this generous.
No, I am paying high taxes to support my own community already. Schools and infrastructure require lots of employees who require good pay and pensions. I also have my own kid to worry about. I am not going to become a surrogate father to anyone and certainly do want to enable an already bloated nanny state.
We could reduce other things from our budget (defense) Also we could, I don't know, legalize to some extent to collect tax dollars. I never mentioned raising taxes, just budgeting. I feel that the $300 billion on defense is a little much....not to mention the money we spent on TARP. I'd rather have a more tangible return on investment. I won't call the US a "bloated nanny state" btw.
Also again $47k isn't poverty level. This is the median income. Most illegal immigrants are in this lower middle class bracket. Most do recieve aid, but not welfare (aid also means free lunch in cafeterias...it's a pretty loose term).
See above again. How about Mexico alleviating their own poverty. Why is it our obligation?
See above.
Wealth disparity is not our problem. As for what its doing, a great deal of it is negative.
Yes it is OUR problem!!! We helped create it. We perpetuate it. We lost manufacturing jobs over it and thus a good portion of the middle class.
I have read your testimony to me and to others. Were I rude, I would simply dismiss you as barking mad. However, I have instead tried to explain the obvious: Immigrating to a country is that country doing you a favor. Its niether an obligation of the receiving country nor a civil right of the prospective immigrant. You are trying to depict the entire notion as a social welfare program from the US to benefit [insert a country]. That is simply wrong and I think you know that.
It's not simply doing a "favor". Immigration, in general, has net benefits to the host population as well. However, despite the fact I'm not depicting the notion as a social welfare program in the way you portray...I feel that immigration can be used as a tool to combat some of the inequalities that exist. I feel that as a human being, we need to overcome and try to rectify the situation at hand. Decreasing the global wealth disparity also means more consumers...one way to help this goal is by immigration.
We see that India and China serve as models. Many Chinese and Indians are leaving the US to work back in their countries. They want to take the skills they learned here back there. Thus, immigration serving to alleviate poverty in their respective nations.
So let's see, if a potential bank robber offers me a job to be his accomplice and I agree to it, only the bank robber is guilty? I get off the hook? I am about to give up on you. I feel like we are just going around and around in circles and no matter what facts and laws are presented to you, you still are apologizing for the illegals. Reminds me of someone else in here of which I am ignoring from now on. Are you an American citizen? If so, where is your compassion for your fellow Americans in all of this? It is just plain mind boggling to me that if you are an American that you view things this way. You are willing to see your fellow Americans suffer to help illegal alien invaders?
Your "plan" didn't anwer my question. How do you intend to force the churches to be responsible for the care of illegal aliens?
If we make things easier as you put it then yes it will be a free for all.
I think the employer is more culpable than the worker. thats all. yes he is not supposed to be even in the country much less working, however if the employer did not employ him the illegal would not have the job. neither are off the hook.
you wanna give up on me as I have a different opinion than you fine, matters not to me. you seem to not answer the questions posed to you anyway and let other people answer them for you. am I an american? you question that because I have compassion for the issue?
I never said I have a plan, I said the churches should be doing more to help all people and they don't do enough.
That "poor couple" in your example is NOT otherwise law abiding. By working here, they have committed one or more felonies. What type of ID did they show the employer who hired them? Was it stolen or fake? Quite likely, since only four states still legally issue ID cards and driver's licenses to illegal aliens. If the illegal alien couple used stolen or fake IDs, they committed ID theft or document fraud. Did the illegal alien couple show Social Security cards when they applied for their jobs? Since illegal aliens can't legally get a Social Security Card, they either used stolen or fake cards, which means they committed Social Security fraud and document fraud.
Did the illegal alien couple provide false information on the I-9 Form that they filled out and signed under penalty of perjury? Quite likely, since they're using fake and/or stolen IDs and documents to apply for their jobs. That's employment fraud and perjury. Did the employer know that he was hiring illegal aliens? If so, that's conspiracy between the illegal aliens and the employer to violate immigration laws.
Is the employer paying this illegal alien couple in cash from which no taxes are being taken out? Or if the employer is taking out the appropriate taxes and paying the couple's net pay in cash, is the couple reporting this income to the government and paying any additional income taxes if it is owed? In either one of these examples, income tax evasion may have occurred.
excellent points that I shall have to give more consideration to. thanks
I don't know, hothula...I'm trying to see your side..really. But this statement by you (above) comes AWFULLY close to my own 'dire predictions' about the deterioration of our free and benevolent society, and an eventual descent into a less free 'Third World' state.
Our whole system of law rests on the presumption that each and every one of us...you, me, and every other adult...are autonomous, free, and self-governing individuals...free to make decisions, free to make choices, but at the same time, held responsible for the outcome of their actions. You can make a contract, but in so doing, you're bound by it...you can make things 'happen', but must live with the results, good or bad. NOBODY is free to say "I couldn't help it...HE made me do it". In a free society, it just doesn't work that way.
In the above quote, you come pretty close to saying that illegals "just can't HELP it"...because they're "lured" into breaking the law. In other words, they "don't know any better"...they "got fooled"...or they "really don't understand what they're doing". It SOUNDS like that's what you're hinting at...employers are 'crooked, slick, wheeler-dealers', but illegals are 'naive victims'. You make illegals sound VERY much like children....unable to make informed decisions, unable to tell right from wrong, and thus not to be held accountable for their actions.
Are you SURE this is what you're saying?..because, if it is, we're in big trouble. If a certain segment of adults in this country are exempt from the results of their actions, because they 'can't HELP it', then it won't be long before our entire 'voluntary' system collapses, and is replaced by some other system...a system in which we won't HAVE to make any decisions at all, because somebody 'up there' will be making them FOR us.
So is that your take, or not? Are illegal immigrants responsible for breaking our laws, or are they not?
mac, no I know the illegal is not lured into a job and knows full well what he is doing, I just think he is less culpable and his motives are mostly to feed his family, were the employer seems to do it for slave labor or to get around having to pay what he normally would for documented and american workers. doesn't make either of them right.
Isn't that sort of like saying car thieves wouldn't become criminals if it were not for chop shops?
Your right there would be fewer drunk drivers if there were no bars or night clubs.
I know I know like those old comercials from the 1970's.
Don't let a good boy go bad don't leave your keys in your car and lock the doors.
The scene showing a kid looking in car windows.
So it's not also becasue of the fact that laws aren't reflective of the situation? Only 30,000 ag visas in a nation that has the plurality of illegal immigrants in agriculture. The quotas are out of whack with the amount needed.
A report by Jeffrey Passel, a demographer at the Pew Hispanic Center who has long studied immigration trends, estimates that 247,000 illegal immigrants were employed as "miscellaneous agricultural workers" last year — only 3.4 percent of the nation's 7.2 million illegal workers, according to Pew statistics.
So it's not also becasue of the fact that laws aren't reflective of the situation? Only 30,000 ag visas in a nation that has the plurality of illegal immigrants in agriculture. The quotas are out of whack with the amount needed. This is just one example. Obviously, the quota (part of the law) doesn't reflect the situation.
I do not know if your numbers are accurate, but for arguments' sake, I will assume they are. In short, so what? That does not justify people illegally entering and working in this country or any other. Its our law and until a consensus arrives to change that law, it stands. Mexicans or other illegal migrants do not have a mandate to change that let alone circumvent that with your blessing.
I guess you miss the irony of your own logic. You first describe a labor need and how a law impedes meeting that need. You then go on to describe how even after those restrictions are lifted, we are going to have to make cuts in our budget, encourage people to go to college, and generally create or reorganize the nanny state to accomodate an ever growing influx of people. In short, bring in the labor for an industry needs it and then heavily subsidize the workers and by extension the industry.
You then move on to the typical Marxist flapdoodle (knew it was inevitable, but you held out- salud) about the World Bank and neo-Colonialism. Good Grief, is that not just more soft racism that the left is notorious for? As if Mexico, if she had the motivation and incentive, could not do the same thing Ireland, Botswana, Korea, Singapore, Spain, and Portugal have done and lift herself out of poverty via sound economic sanity. Most people would say a Mexican worker is a hard worker. No doubt. So allow them to channel that energy into building their own country.
So I am sorry, but you are not making any sense whatsoever. Your arguments are all over the map and basically come down to ignoring the laws, indeed all laws, as they are not to your liking and thus elastic, if not nebulous concepts.
I think the employer is more culpable than the worker. thats all. yes he is not supposed to be even in the country much less working, however if the employer did not employ him the illegal would not have the job. neither are off the hook.
you wanna give up on me as I have a different opinion than you fine, matters not to me. you seem to not answer the questions posed to you anyway and let other people answer them for you. am I an american? you question that because I have compassion for the issue?
I never said I have a plan, I said the churches should be doing more to help all people and they don't do enough.
I don't feel any different about tossing out someone using fake documents than I do for some one hiring Illegals getting a huge fine or jail time.
I have been giving hothula's comment about employers being more at fault a lot of thought.
Hothula is correct. The employer is the greedy scum bag who hires the illegal regardless of our laws.
The illegal is an alien, they owe no loyalty and should feel no special intrest in what our opinions are.
The employer however is one of us.
It is bad enough to be robbed by a perfect stranger but all the worse when it is a family member.
Hothula you correct. The employers are more at fault.
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