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I think the employer is more culpable than the worker. thats all. yes he is not supposed to be even in the country much less working, however if the employer did not employ him the illegal would not have the job. neither are off the hook.
you wanna give up on me as I have a different opinion than you fine, matters not to me. you seem to not answer the questions posed to you anyway and let other people answer them for you. am I an american? you question that because I have compassion for the issue?
I never said I have a plan, I said the churches should be doing more to help all people and they don't do enough.
You are now backpeddling. I didn't need to answer your question about the obvious since others jumped in to do it why should I repeat what they said? I did post something in regards to the collusion between our government and the greedy employers. Since you claim that the government won't secure our borders due to the costs made no sense when we spend billions on other things and trillions on foreign wars that makes it obvious what is really going on. If our government were really serious about border security they would take all the incentives away for coming here illegally and put more manpower on the borders but they haven't. Use some common sense here.
It was merely a question. Are you an American citizen? I note that you didn't anwer that. Yes, you did say you had a "plan". Go back and read your post.
Last edited by chicagonut; 01-14-2010 at 09:27 AM..
I have been giving hothula's comment about employers being more at fault a lot of thought.
Hothula is correct. The employer is the greedy scum bag who hires the illegal regardless of our laws.
The illegal is an alien, they owe no loyalty and should feel no special intrest in what our opinions are.
The employer however is one of us.
It is bad enough to be robbed by a perfect stranger but all the worse when it is a family member.
Hothula you correct. The employers are more at fault.
I disagree with you here. To absolve the worker of equal guilt is treating them as if they were a child with no conscience. They may not owe loyalty to this country but as human beings they should have a conscience and moral obligation to the human race.
I disagree with you here. To absolve the worker of equal guilt is treating them as if they were a child with no conscience. They may not owe loyalty to this country but as human beings they should have a conscience and moral obligation to the human race.
True but in this case. Where does their moral responsibility lie?
For example. If I found my fathers wallet filled with cash I would never ever even consider taking any of his money let alone keeping the wallet for myself.
Now if it were a strangers wallet? No I still wouldn't keep it or take any money but at the same time I also would not be as intense about making sure its owner got it back like I would my fathers.
I don't absolve the illegals for their part in the crime. I simply hate the employer more for their betrayal of america. The illegal has betrayed no one other than themselves.
True but in this case. Where does their moral responsibility lie?
For example. If I found my fathers wallet filled with cash I would never ever even consider taking any of his money let alone keeping the wallet for myself.
Now if it were a strangers wallet? No I still wouldn't keep it or take any money but at the same time I also would not be as intense about making sure its owner got it back like I would my fathers.
I don't absolve the illegals for their part in the crime. I simply hate the employer more for their betrayal of america. The illegal has betrayed no one other than themselves.
Actually, I would feel just as intense about returning the stranger's wallet as I would my own family members. I guess we see things differently on this issue although I agree with you 99% of the time.
I'm also equally appalled at the employers who hire illegals but I am just as appalled by the arrogance of illegal aliens who come here knowing full well that they are taking jobs from Americans by agreeing to do them for less money. I guess it is because this deceit and immorality doesn't end just there. Their entire lives here are built on deceit and taking what they aren't entitled to.
I disagree with you here. To absolve the worker of equal guilt is treating them as if they were a child with no conscience. They may not owe loyalty to this country but as human beings they should have a conscience and moral obligation to the human race.
This assumes that there are no larger issues at play. That simply no wrongs occur on the part of the US to make create illegal immigration in the first place...which is simply false.
Actually, I would feel just as intense about returning the stranger's wallet as I would my own family members. I guess we see things differently on this issue although I agree with you 99% of the time.
I'm also equally appalled at the employers who hire illegals but I am just as appalled by the arrogance of illegal aliens who come here knowing full well that they are taking jobs from Americans by agreeing to do them for less money. I guess it is because this deceit and immorality doesn't end just there. Their entire lives here are built on deceit and taking what they aren't entitled to.
Fair enough. The point I was making is that as citizens of the USA that employers should feel and be held to a greater expectation and level of accountability.
Just as with my fathers wallet I should feel a greater responsibility to make sure he gets it back. I know and understand his needs better than would a stranger.
Fair enough. The point I was making is that as citizens of the USA that employers should feel and be held to a greater expectation and level of accountability.
Just as with my fathers wallet I should feel a greater responsibility to make sure he gets it back. I know and understand his needs better than would a stranger.
Employers should certainly be sanctioned, ideally at least. But its not as if they are setting up recruiting booths south of the Rio Grande, transporting the migrants across the border, housing them, and then hiring them.
Were we to tackle this problem with any seriousness, which we will not, it would be a multipronged approach. Sanction those who hire, secure the border as best we can, and do not reward illegals with any benefits beyond that which humanitarian concerns dictate. Mass deportations ain't gonna happen and would be largely unnecessary if other measures were implemented.
But its all moot. A population that is incapable of understanding the fundamental difference between the words legal and illegal is not one that is going to do what it takes.
Employers should certainly be sanctioned, ideally at least. But its not as if they are setting up recruiting booths south of the Rio Grande, transporting the migrants across the border, housing them, and then hiring them.
Were we to tackle this problem with any seriousness, which we will not, it would be a multipronged approach. Sanction those who hire, secure the border as best we can, and do not reward illegals with any benefits beyond that which humanitarian concerns dictate. Mass deportations ain't gonna happen and would be largely unnecessary if other measures were implemented.
But its all moot. A population that is incapable of understanding the fundamental difference between the words legal and illegal is not one that is going to do what it takes.
Oh I agree 100%. Multipronged attack is the only viable solution.
Hammer the employers who knowingly hire illegals. All of them not just the meat packers but joe home owner thats to cheap to hire a licenced contractor also.
Hammer the landlords who know that 4 families are living in a single family unit and he charges extra for it.
Finally hammer the illegals. sieze their assets. If a SSN is false or doesn't match at the emergency room the police should be called in.
Same with schools.
Force the illegals to self deport.
Of course it won't happen because the average american is to short sighted to see beyond his own nose and will believe what ever story a politician tells if it sounds like he is getting something for free.
You are now backpeddling. I didn't need to answer your question about the obvious since others jumped in to do it why should I repeat what they said? I did post something in regards to the collusion between our government and the greedy employers. Since you claim that the government won't secure our borders due to the costs made no sense when we spend billions on other things and trillions on foreign wars that makes it obvious what is really going on. If our government were really serious about border security they would take all the incentives away for coming here illegally and put more manpower on the borders but they haven't. Use some common sense here.
It was merely a question. Are you an American citizen? I note that you didn't anwer that. Yes, you did say you had a "plan". Go back and read your post.
I am not back peddling if I said plan I will take your word that I did. I am not going back and re reading this thread to find one sentence. obviously I was using it in the general way as in a plan, a good idea would be, for the churches to step up to the plate and help people more than they do. we have churches in our country with extremely wealthy ministers that should take half less in salary and spend the windfall the churches have on poor and needy people instead of lining their pockets and or building huge 2 storied churches that house thousands of people. you want me to come up with a real plan. I could, give me the budget of a mega church, I will go through it cut the costs and re distribute the wealth in a big way. I have often said we need a strict grandmother who grew up poor with seven kids to raise on her own to be in charge of the federal budget. she would get rid of the waste big time.
you tell me to use common sense I would ask the same of you. our government has priorities that do not always go along with our personal priorities, that does not mean there is a conspiracy of corrupt politicians in mass along w/powerful business that is the only reason for our border troubles. "get real". do you also believe in the conspiracies that 9-11 was an inside job and obama is not a citizen?
I did not answer the question if I am an american or not as I viewed it as an insult. your 3rd to me so far in this thread. insults only thrown at me because I disagree with you. if you don't want to go back and read the thread I will recap for you. I have been told to "get educated" which is just another way of calling me stupid. you tell me "I don't have a clue" another way of trying to tell me you think I am stupid. you wonder "if I live in a cave" not many ways to translate that other than you want to tell me, YOU think I am dumb. now you ask if I am an american simply because I have a different view than you? if you are questioning my loyalty to USA, based on the idea I should agree with you, then my question to you would be what counrty are you from, that does not allow for differeing thought? are you an american and have you heard of free speech?
can you post real information about how corrupt influences are the only reason are borders are not secure? not chain mail and far leaning rhetoric. if you could, then I can accept that may be the reason and change my position. until then it is a fear based opinion that relies on a huge conspiracy to be true. if all you can do is post blog style material to back up your claims then you are only fooling yourself not to consider other reasons as well.
and just because others post their thought on the same subject does not mean you shouldn't have your own to post when the question was directed to you. in your posts to me you seem to answer most questions with another question that means to deflect, or insult not seek to enlighten. reminds me of a child in the playgound saying "I know you are but what am I"
no more bizarre and strange than people taking exception to bank robbery.
only its our jobs instead of our bank accounts.
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