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There's no "emotionality" here. The post to which I responded was not coherent or understandable, and the simple "What?!?!" should have clearly shown that your point was not made. Feel free to present the opinion or question in a manner that can be understood, and I'll be happy to respond.
Okay I'll try to explain better. Next time a simple "I don't understand, can you explain please?" would be a more mature response. Regardless, hopefully this will help.
Many use the rule of argument to state why they are against illegal immigration. They state that the law is the law and the law states that enterance into the US without proper documentation is bad. Thus, illegal immigration is bad. They (illegal immigrants) are bad. However, the main flaw in this, is that those who whose this argument don't take into account that the law can be changed and the law is not exactly immune to error. Since laws can be subjectively made, they may reflect the biases of the lawmakers.
Those that use this argument also tend to state that the laws will not change to incorporate those that are here without documentation. They argue that this will not happen since they are illegal. There is another flaw. They are illegal according to the law, yet would be legal if the law changed. They base this argument on the first law and not the second...which would be the law that determines status.
So if X person is illegal under the current law and a new law passed to make X legal...the criticism I've read in the past is that X should not be made legal because under the FIRST law he was illegal. But, the newer law takes precedence.
However, when the laws change in their favor, then whole notion of not changing the laws disappears. Hence the hypocrisy.
So you see, the whole rule of law argument can be hypocritical.
1) I fail to understand your logic. If I follow you correctly, since the current situation isn't that bad and doesn't affect the US, it can stay the way it is. I am not familiar with a similar situation anywhere, - can you give an example of any sovereign nation that kept its borders large open letting millions of foreigners enter without control and registration? And these aliens can work, live, start new families, use the country's services and facilities without significant changes to the host country? Again, I honestly cannot think of such scenario anywhere in recent global history, but maybe you can.
Didn't say that at all. Simply that many of the arguments against illegal immigration are rooted in the notions previously stated. These notions have been shown to be incorrect.
2) Beyond your vague statement that laws can be changed, you do not provide any specific. Which laws and how? Can you provide details?
This was mentioned in previous posts and on previous threads. Later tonight, after work I can post a MUCH more detailed post regarding my ideas.
Never stated it was my unilateral descision. Simply stated that laws are not static and not infallible, hence let's work within the system to try to change the laws. We, as a nation, should strive to strike a balance between both sides. It's beneficial for all.
We do have a balance- its callled LEGAL IMMIGRATION. Indeed, the USA allows more people to come here Legally than all other countries of the world combined. Furthermore, our laws favor the Third World. Folks like you seem to be incapable of differentiating between Legal and Illegal Immigration, the latter not being immigration at all.
I'd like to incorporate some of views of the hardcore anti-illegal side (essentially the majority that post here) as well as a more liberal/moderate stance. Ideally.
You don't need to- its called LEGAL IMMIGRATION. And yes, the USA benefits from it. Most people would agree and have no problem with people coming here via the established system.
Also, the law is not stopping you from killing or stealing. It's, again, a little more complicated. People steal all the time regardless of the law. The law has helped those that have stolen.
Nonsense. The law is most certainly stopping me from doing a great many things. The law and the consequences of disobeying it. That is what its there for.
Not really since you have to account the reasons why. Desire is not the reason. Money typically is. Well, then you have to understand the disparity of wealth. So you get the idea...it's not as easy as you framed it.
Irrelevant. Sure, money is a motivator. No doubt. However, the desire for more money is not an excuse to circumvent our laws. Unless once again, I can blow your brains out so as to take your money as I need more- There is your reason why.
I assume that you live in the United States. I will assume that moving to Australia was not due to dire living conditions in the US. So it's really not the same.
Irrelevant. Australia does not base their immigration laws on what I or other people need- they base them on what they need. How can you not understand that?
The law is subjectively made. Thus, if we can change the laws to try to incorporate some measures that are beneficial to this population...I feel that the nation would greatly benefit. The fact of the matter is that the laws need to change to reflect the current situation. This is regardless of whether they do change or don't.
Once again, why? We have a very, very generous LEGAL IMMIGRATION structure that benefits those who come here and those of us already here.
How exactly does the nation benefit from importing poverty?
The laws does not need to change- it needs to be enforced.
Not really...
Yes, really...
Your entire argument is based on nothing more than your little fantasy backed up by some implied name-calling (not to me, to others). If you are going to convince people that its beneficial to pick and choose laws at will and import a lot of poverty, you are going to have to do better. Much better.
It seems to me that there are two driving factors that lead people to become passionate against illegal immigration.
Since you started the thread with this statement, let me ask you a question: don't you think at least part of the problem has to do with that word, illegal? If they're not supposed to be here in the first place, why would you expect anyone to be comfortable with their presence?
I don't like the fact that they feel entitled to living in this country WITHOUT having gone through the proper channels to become legal citizens. THAT is my problem with illegal immigrants. I know the process is difficult and probably should be reformed, but a flawed process is still not an excuse to ignore current law, in my opinion.
We do have a balance- its callled LEGAL IMMIGRATION. Indeed, the USA allows more people to come here Legally than all other countries of the world combined. Furthermore, our laws favor the Third World. Folks like you seem to be incapable of differentiating between Legal and Illegal Immigration, the latter not being immigration at all.
Really? If there is a balance, why doe we have en-masse illegal immigration? Obviously, legal migration needs to change.
You don't need to- its called LEGAL IMMIGRATION. And yes, the USA benefits from it. Most people would agree and have no problem with people coming here via the established system.
Again obviously the system in place is not working. So we have to find something that does work.
Nonsense. The law is most certainly stopping me from doing a great many things. The law and the consequences of disobeying it. That is what its there for.
Not a risk benefit analysis. If you see $10 on the street and pick it up...technically that's stealing. But there is low risk and high benefit. The law didn't prevent you from picking up the money The laws are simply part of the equation. Again laws themselves are not stopping you.
Irrelevant. Sure, money is a motivator. No doubt. However, the desire for more money is not an excuse to circumvent our laws. Unless once again, I can blow your brains out so as to take your money as I need more- There is your reason why.
Very relevant. Since it explains what needs to be done in order to fully end illegal immigration. It's not simply the desire for more money, but the desire for the opportunity to make more. There are more barriers to access in the 3rd world.
Irrelevant. Australia does not base their immigration laws on what I or other people need- they base them on what they need. How can you not understand that?
Very relevant. See above.
Once again, why? We have a very, very generous LEGAL IMMIGRATION structure that benefits those who come here and those of us already here.
Not really...
How exactly does the nation benefit from importing poverty?
So we try to budget accordingly. You do know the median illegal immigrant family makes roughly 47k a year. That's more than double the poverty level for a family of 4.
Also, you try to encourage the younger generation to obtain a college education.
You try to find means and methods to alleviate poverty across the board (regardless of legality).
The laws does not need to change- it needs to be enforced.
Clearly the laws need to change.
Yes, really...
Not really...
Your entire argument is based on nothing more than your little fantasy backed up by some implied name-calling (not to me, to others). If you are going to convince people that its beneficial to pick and choose laws at will and import a lot of poverty, you are going to have to do better. Much better.
It's based on the fact that illegal immigration is based on the larger issue of wealth disparity. It's based on the fact that people have ill concieved notions of what illegal immigration is doing to our nation.
If you are taking that message away, then you are really not reading what I'm writing. Never stated anything about picking or choosing. I said the laws must be changed to accomodate both sides of the argument. Never said anything about importing poverty. This is currently happening already. Simply said that we must find ways to alleviate the poverty...one of them being finding ways to incentivize legal migration.
Okay I'll try to explain better. Next time a simple "I don't understand, can you explain please?" would be a more mature response. Regardless, hopefully this will help.
Many use the rule of argument to state why they are against illegal immigration. They state that the law is the law and the law states that enterance into the US without proper documentation is bad. Thus, illegal immigration is bad. They (illegal immigrants) are bad. However, the main flaw in this, is that those who whose this argument don't take into account that the law can be changed and the law is not exactly immune to error. Since laws can be subjectively made, they may reflect the biases of the lawmakers.
Those that use this argument also tend to state that the laws will not change to incorporate those that are here without documentation. They argue that this will not happen since they are illegal. There is another flaw. They are illegal according to the law, yet would be legal if the law changed. They base this argument on the first law and not the second...which would be the law that determines status.
So if X person is illegal under the current law and a new law passed to make X legal...the criticism I've read in the past is that X should not be made legal because under the FIRST law he was illegal. But, the newer law takes precedence.
However, when the laws change in their favor, then whole notion of not changing the laws disappears. Hence the hypocrisy.
So you see, the whole rule of law argument can be hypocritical.
The law reflects the will of the people. When and IF the people OF THIS NATION decide that they want to change the law to something other than what it is, they will. So far, we have decided to stick with the current law, which states that to come into the country you have to follow a certain set of procedures. So while the law may indeed be fluid, there is nothing to suggest that the people of the United States want to change it to anything other than what it is currently. And without sounding arrogant or rude, what the people from OTHER countries want is completely irrelevant.
Really? If there is a balance, why doe we have en-masse illegal immigration? Obviously, legal migration needs to change.
Again obviously the system in place is not working. So we have to find something that does work.
Why do we have stunning numbers of theft, robbery & burglary in the US? Since so many people are doing it, we should change the law so that it is no longer illegal.
That's what you just said about illegal immigration. We should change the law so that it's not illegal, because so many are doing it illegally. Ridiculous. The solution is to stop them from doing it, not to make it legal. How do we stop them? First, we reduce the incentive. Make it painfully illegal for employers to hire them. Second, make it legal and easy to demand proof of citizenship, for everything from applying for a job to registering at a school to getting a drivers license. Third, make it mandatory that anyone who asks for that proof and doesn't get it not only refuses the registration or service being sought, but also reports the lack of proof to the proper authorities. And fourth, tighten up ALL borders, making it impossible (or as close as is realistic) to cross without being documented.
I don't like the fact that they feel entitled to living in this country WITHOUT having gone through the proper channels to become legal citizens. THAT is my problem with illegal immigrants. I know the process is difficult and probably should be reformed, but a flawed process is still not an excuse to ignore current law, in my opinion.
I don't know of any Country that allows people to become Citizens based soley on want. I want a new Ferrari but I doubt I'll be receiving one bases on "want".
Somewhere in that entitlement something got lost. Things like skill and need and population control.
The law reflects the will of the people. When and IF the people OF THIS NATION decide that they want to change the law to something other than what it is, they will. So far, we have decided to stick with the current law, which states that to come into the country you have to follow a certain set of procedures. So while the law may indeed be fluid, there is nothing to suggest that the people of the United States want to change it to anything other than what it is currently. And without sounding arrogant or rude, what the people from OTHER countries want is completely irrelevant.
The law doesn't reflect the will of the people always. A great example is healthcare reform. The senate bill does not have a public option...while 60% of Americans are in favor of a public option. The final law is most likely, according to many analysts to not have a public option. Yet, the will of people is to have a public option.
Sometimes the will of the people is wrong. The war in Iraq was a wildly popular war. However, we see that this was not a good idea. Lack of facts and propoganda may sway the will towards something less in the interest of the people.
The current law benefits those that employ illegal immigrants the most. It also is used to galavinize support for a whole host other purposes. The biggest argument against healthcare reform, for a while, was that illegal immigrants would be covered. The term "illegal immigrant" galvanized support to overturn that particular form of healthcare reform. The war on terror used the anti-illegal sentiment to get those that were strongly oppossed to illegal immigration to be for the war on terror.
The current laws also create a black market for human trafficking. Most times, these coyotes are affiliated with large crime syndicates. This is obviously not the will of the people.
So change and reform needs to occur.
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