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Old 02-20-2013, 07:16 PM
 
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 4,461,919 times
Reputation: 1018

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dport7674 View Post
I never said I consider Missouri a southern state because they have a southern sounding accent.
Just like I wouldn't call a person from Minnesota a Canadian just because they share some of same accent. That would be stupid.
I never said that you did that. And that's precisely the point I was trying to make.
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Old 02-20-2013, 07:26 PM
 
Location: Lincoln, NE
177 posts, read 402,772 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stlouisan View Post
Southern sounding doesn't=Southern. See my link below for proof. It's to the ultimate phonological atlas and linguistics mapping. This will explain to you what you're actually hearing vs. what you think you're hearing.
I agree with you and the linguistics site on how the South Midland dialect should be distinguished from Southern, but I do think you are taking the debate a little too seriously by focusing on the terminology. I would imagine it is a natural occurrence for someone from the north to mistake the difference and label speech from parts of the South Midlands as southern. Most people do not think along the lines of correct linguistic terms when speaking in generalities. To their ears, it may sound "southern", which is okay.

Going back to the grits statement earlier, I'm afraid I can contradict that with two examples in Missouri: Last October I stopped at a Denny's in O'Fallon, and they served cheese grits. Two years ago I stopped at a Bob Evans in St. Joseph, which also had them. Of course, these are not fine dining establishments, but it at least shows they can be found in the state somewhere other than Cracker Barrel.

As for Iowa's accent, what people who hail from Iowa or other northern parts hear as slightly southern in the bottom third of the state, I hear as more of a small town or country twang for particular words or phrases (crick vs creek, Missouruh vs Missouri, etc). Otherwise, it sounds fairly neutral to me, but then again, I've lived in the south my entire life. Two of my close friends growing up moved south from a small town in northeastern Iowa, and I thought their accent sounded very close to a Chicago or southern Wisconsin accent with the flat nasal-like vowel sounds. I also became friends in college with someone from Mason City, and she sounded like some of the characters from "Fargo" to me, which I just LOVED hearing! Therefore, I really think a person's perception of accent is strongly driven by where they spent most of their lives and the accents that became a part of their everyday culture.
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Old 02-20-2013, 07:33 PM
 
1,911 posts, read 3,375,215 times
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These have at least 75% similarity.

Eastern Colorado - no
Kansas - yes
Central Illinois - no
Southern Illinois - Yes, as obvious as Missouri
Indiana (excluding the part by Chicago) - Yes, again, as obvious as Missouri
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Old 02-20-2013, 08:00 PM
 
Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa
1,670 posts, read 2,397,194 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geog-fanatic View Post
I

Going back to the grits statement earlier, I'm afraid I can contradict that with two examples in Missouri: Last October I stopped at a Denny's in O'Fallon, and they served cheese grits. Two years ago I stopped at a Bob Evans in St. Joseph, which also had them. Of course, these are not fine dining establishments, but it at least shows they can be found in the state somewhere other than Cracker Barrel.
Just east of Kansas City, MO, (around Independence) is a small mom and pop restaurant that serves the best grits and breakfast. The place is always packed full.
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Old 02-20-2013, 09:17 PM
 
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 4,461,919 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geog-fanatic View Post
I agree with you and the linguistics site on how the South Midland dialect should be distinguished from Southern, but I do think you are taking the debate a little too seriously by focusing on the terminology. I would imagine it is a natural occurrence for someone from the north to mistake the difference and label speech from parts of the South Midlands as southern. Most people do not think along the lines of correct linguistic terms when speaking in generalities. To their ears, it may sound "southern", which is okay.

Going back to the grits statement earlier, I'm afraid I can contradict that with two examples in Missouri: Last October I stopped at a Denny's in O'Fallon, and they served cheese grits. Two years ago I stopped at a Bob Evans in St. Joseph, which also had them. Of course, these are not fine dining establishments, but it at least shows they can be found in the state somewhere other than Cracker Barrel.

As for Iowa's accent, what people who hail from Iowa or other northern parts hear as slightly southern in the bottom third of the state, I hear as more of a small town or country twang for particular words or phrases (crick vs creek, Missouruh vs Missouri, etc). Otherwise, it sounds fairly neutral to me, but then again, I've lived in the south my entire life. Two of my close friends growing up moved south from a small town in northeastern Iowa, and I thought their accent sounded very close to a Chicago or southern Wisconsin accent with the flat nasal-like vowel sounds. I also became friends in college with someone from Mason City, and she sounded like some of the characters from "Fargo" to me, which I just LOVED hearing! Therefore, I really think a person's perception of accent is strongly driven by where they spent most of their lives and the accents that became a part of their everyday culture.
I think that grits have gradually spread north of the Mason-Dixon line along with sweet tea. Grits are still fairly uncommon across most of Missouri though. Having been a St. Louis resident my whole life, I would have seen them universally everywhere if this were the actual south. I have eaten at many, many restaurants in the St. Louis area and have rarely if ever seen grits on the menu. If people in this forum were right, I would've seen them and would readily admit it. But I haven't, so I have to stand my ground.
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Old 02-20-2013, 09:21 PM
 
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 4,461,919 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonnieJonez View Post
These have at least 75% similarity.

Eastern Colorado - no
Kansas - yes
Central Illinois - no
Southern Illinois - Yes, as obvious as Missouri
Indiana (excluding the part by Chicago) - Yes, again, as obvious as Missouri
Ronnie, who do you think you are contradicting what professional linguists say? Are you so knowledgeable and qualified that your word is the word to end all words? Finally, you should have noted that upon further reading (And it's in the link I sent..I misread and found that the 75% consistency was for one criterion between South and South Midland.) Professional linguists disagree and would include all of those areas as being one and the same (at least some parts of Central Illinois). So unless you can back up your viewpoints with concrete evidence, I'm going to have to say you are all opinions and no facts. And besides, I've heard people from Central Illinois speak with an accent similar to Missouri. There is a farmer I know who lives in Christian County, Illinois, just south of Springfield. He is a native to the area and speaks just like somebody from rural Missouri. And I happen to know a rancher from Eastern Colorado who talks with a very similar twang.
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Old 02-20-2013, 09:34 PM
 
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 4,461,919 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iagal View Post
Just east of Kansas City, MO, (around Independence) is a small mom and pop restaurant that serves the best grits and breakfast. The place is always packed full.
Nice try, but Independence is culturally, linguistically, and demographically not the South. Speaking of which, I recall being able to get grits at a restaurant in Cedar Rapids, Iowa...restaurant was called something like "Two Brothers".

I've also been researching places where you can find grits in Iowa and Chicago...boy was I surprised....there is Augusta's Restaurant in Oxford, Iowa for example, locally owned and operated, and numerous breakfast restaurants in Chicago that serve grits. And I just spoke to my relatives in Cleveland....they know a restaurant in Akron that serves grits. So if we want to even use grits as a way to say what's southern and what isn't, we're going to have to call undeniably Northern states southern as well.

Last edited by stlouisan; 02-20-2013 at 09:42 PM..
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Old 02-21-2013, 06:48 AM
 
Location: West Tennessee
2,105 posts, read 3,113,870 times
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This entire discussion is all relative. Like stlouisan said, the majority of Missouri does not speak with a southern accent. I am from Southeast Missouri and I know a guy that lives on the Iowa-Missouri border and his accent is 0% southern. If you are coming from Iowa then yes Missouri will sound a bit different than what you are used to. That doesn't automatically make it southern though. You have to get to a line that runs from roughly Joplin to Cape Girardeau before southern accents become the majority. I am a Missouri native and I speak with a southern accent, but I grew up at a lower latitude than Richmond, Virginia. The Missouri bootheel stands in contrast to the rest of the state in a lot of ways, dialect being one of them.
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Old 02-21-2013, 08:00 AM
 
Location: Des Moines, Iowa
2,401 posts, read 3,848,172 times
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The "issue" with the last couple of pages of this discussion is that people are talking past each other. Maybe this will help.

Ronnie (and his reluctant band of supporters here) aren't interested in an academic definition for the purposes of a general discussion on the differences in accents that we hear in our everyday lives. I tend to be in this camp (at least for an informal discussion as this is). My general catagories for the midwest - northern, no accent, southern. From there a add an adjective -e.g...that person has a strong (or weak) northern accent.

For the average person, I think that is all the further they care define this. Shouldn't that be OK (as long as we're not writing a research paper here)?

For my own educational purposes, I appreciate the knowledge that St Louisan is providing here, I just think he/she needs to realize most of us only care to discuss this topic from a more informal place. I do understand being irritated by some of the examples of broad brush stereotypes however. That can be a pet peeve of mine too.
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Old 02-21-2013, 08:19 AM
 
9,411 posts, read 10,370,253 times
Reputation: 8537
Quote:
Originally Posted by stlouisan View Post
I think that grits have gradually spread north of the Mason-Dixon line along with sweet tea. Grits are still fairly uncommon across most of Missouri though. Having been a St. Louis resident my whole life, I would have seen them universally everywhere if this were the actual south. I have eaten at many, many restaurants in the St. Louis area and have rarely if ever seen grits on the menu. If people in this forum were right, I would've seen them and would readily admit it. But I haven't, so I have to stand my ground.
It's silly to argue about this.

I'm just saying that IN MY EXPERIENCE in St Louis, I have heard a lot of southern accents and have seen grits on menus often. This was when I was a kid, mostly, as we went to St Louis at least once a year. So, saying grits is moving north recently...well, if you consider the 80s recent, so be it.

A southern accent and grits on menus isnt something to be offended about, so I don't know why you are getting so defensive, honestly.

Moving on now!
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