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Old 11-12-2014, 07:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamsiam View Post
Humanism also has written "manifesto" (3 of them!)
Humanist Manifesto - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
So does the Unabomber and Norway killer, and countless others.

I fail to see how that applies to Islam.

 
Old 11-12-2014, 07:38 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_a49 View Post
I am sure that is so, however muslims do have a set of belief's and rules they are supposed to follow, and a written ideology.

Just because that exists, there will be a higher percentage who follow it.
Yet the majority of Muslims do not engage in terrorism or other acts of aggression.

I am not the only Muslim who is convinced Islam teaches tolerance, far dealings, and seeks world peace.
 
Old 11-12-2014, 09:33 PM
 
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Islam is "The religion of peace" that is correct.

What they do not advertise is that the peace comes only after they kill everyone else.

Then there is another monkey wrench.

What about the "Bad Muslims"

Who are the "Bad muslim's" you ask.

Easy answer, the other ones.

Islam has to fight an inner battle killing off all but one sect.

Islam is about as far from "The religion of peace", anyone can get.
 
Old 11-13-2014, 08:13 PM
 
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Surah 5 verse 8

Oh you who believe, Be steadfast witnesses for God in equity, and let not hatred of any people seduce you that you deal not justly. Deal justly, that is nearer to your duty. Observe your duty to God. God is aware of what you do.
 
Old 11-13-2014, 09:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamsiam View Post
Surah 5 verse 8

Oh you who believe, Be steadfast witnesses for God in equity, and let not hatred of any people seduce you that you deal not justly. Deal justly, that is nearer to your duty. Observe your duty to God. God is aware of what you do.
Why did you write that without an explanation of what is perceived as Justly.

You are being misleading.
 
Old 11-14-2014, 11:23 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,501 posts, read 17,075,596 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_a49 View Post
Why did you write that without an explanation of what is perceived as Justly.

You are being misleading.
While Justly is not an exact translation it is the closest possible in English.

Looking at 3 different Translations may make the intent clearer

Note especially at what I made BOLD

5:8 (Asad) O YOU who have attained to faith! Be ever steadfast in your devotion to God, bearing witness to the truth in all equity; and never let hatred of any-one [19] lead you into the sin of deviating from justice. Be just: this is closest to being God-conscious. And remain conscious of God: verily, God is aware of all that you do.

5:8 (Y. Ali) O ye who believe! stand out firmly for Allah, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety: and fear Allah. For Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do.

5:8 (Picktall) O ye who believe! Be steadfast witnesses for Allah in equity, and let not hatred of any people seduce you that ye deal not justly. Deal justly, that is nearer to your duty. Observe your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is Informed of what ye do.

Looking at the Tafsir of Maududi we get this:

Quote:
Topics and their Interconnection

The Believers have been exhorted to fulfill scrupulously all of their obligations and follow the regulations prescribed by the Divine Law about food, sex, Salat, justice, etc. 1 - 10
SOURCE

Ayyat 1-10 are a single subject and need to be read together. Using Asad's translation

Quote:
5:1 (Asad) O YOU who have attained to faith! Be true to your covenants! [1] Lawful to you is the [flesh of every] beast that feeds on plants, save what is mentioned to you [hereinafter [2] ]: but you are not allowed to hunt while you are in the state of pilgrimage. Behold, God ordains in accordance with His will. [3]

5:2 (Asad) O you who have attained to faith! Offend not against the symbols set up by God, nor against the sacred month [of pilgrimage], nor against the garlanded offerings, [4] nor against those who flock to the Inviolable Temple, seeking favour with their Sustainer and His goodly acceptance; and [only] after your pilgrimage is over [5] are you free to hunt. And never let your hatred of people who would bar you from the Inviolable House of Worship lead you into the sin of aggression: [6] but rather help one another in furthering virtue and God-consciousness, and do not help one another in furthering evil and enmity; and remain conscious of God: for, behold, God is severe in retribution!

5:3 (Asad) FORBIDDEN to you is carrion, and blood, and the flesh of swine, and that over which any name other than God's has been invoked, [7] and the animal that has been strangled, or beaten to death, or killed by a fall, or gored to death, or savaged by a beast of prey, save that which you [yourselves] may have slaughtered while it was still alive; and [forbidden to you is] all that has been slaughtered on idolatrous altars. [8] And [you are forbidden] to seek to learn through divination what the future may hold in store for you: [9] this is sinful conduct. Today, those who , are bent on denying the truth have lost all hope of [your ever forsaking] your religion: do not, then, hold them in awe, but stand in awe of Me! Today have I perfected your religious law for you, and have bestowed upon you the full measure of My blessings, and willed that self-surrender unto Me shall be your religion. [10] As for him, however, who is driven [to what is forbidden] by dire necessity [11] and not by an inclination to sinning -behold, God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace.

5:4 (Asad) They will ask thee as to what is lawful to them. Say: "Lawful to you are all the good things of life." [12] And as for those hunting animals [13] which you train by imparting to them something of the knowledge that God has imparted to yourselves-eat of what they seize for you, but mention God's name over it. and remain conscious of God: verily, God is swift in reckoning.

5:5 (Asad) Today, all the good things of life have been made lawful to you. And the food of those who have been vouchsafed revelation aforetime is lawful to you, [14] and your food is lawful to them. And [lawful to you are], in wedlock, women from among those who believe [in this divine writ], and, in wedlock, women from among those who have been vouchsafed revelation before your time -provided that you give them their dowers, taking them in honest wedlock, not in fornication, nor as secret love-companions. [15] But as for him who rejects belief [in God] - in vain will be all his works: for in the life to come he shall be among the lost. [16]

5:6 (Asad) O YOU who have attained to faith! When you are about to pray, wash your face, and your hands and arms up to the elbows, and pass your [wet] hands lightly over your head, and [wash] your feet up to the ankles. And if you are in a state. requiring total ablution, purify yourselves. [17] But if you are ill, or are travelling, or have just satisfied a want of nature, or have cohabited with a woman, and can find no water-then take resort to pure dust, passing therewith lightly over your face and your hands. God does not want to impose any hardship on you, but wants to make you pure, and to bestow upon you the full measure of His blessings, so that you might have cause to be grateful.

5:7 (Asad) And [always] remember the blessings which God has bestowed upon you, and the solemn pledge by which He bound you to Himself [18] when you said, "We have heard, and we pay heed." Hence, remain conscious of God: verily, God has full knowledge of what is in the hearts [of men].

5:8 (Asad) O YOU who have attained to faith! Be ever steadfast in your devotion to God, bearing witness to the truth in all equity; and never let hatred of any-one [19] lead you into the sin of deviating from justice. Be just: this is closest to being God-conscious. And remain conscious of God: verily, God is aware of all that you do.

5:9 (Asad) God has promised unto those who attain to faith and do good works [that] theirs shall be forgiveness of sins, and a mighty reward;

5:10 (Asad) whereas they who are bent on denying the truth and giving the lie to Our messages-they are destined for the blazing fire.


SOURCE


Quick synopsis

This is informing Muslims to treat all people with equity and fairly. Allaah(swt) will punish those who refuse to do so.
 
Old 11-14-2014, 03:58 PM
 
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No, it is to treat then "Justly", does not say anything about fair.

And what is "justly"

When this was written, muhammed just murdered 900 Jewish males over puberty, and stole all of their land, livestock, and women. Is that just???

He acted Justly, because in his eyes, these were enemies of Allah,
 
Old 11-14-2014, 11:03 PM
 
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I agree that it is a disservice to the wisdom of the Quranic teachings to not read it as a whole. Cutting up the Quran, fragments the wholistic (Unity) paradigm of the Quranic world-view.
(For those Muslims who have memorized the Quran there is no problem, but those of us who have not, it might be a good habit to look up surrounding verses of any singular verse quotes so as to put them in the correct context....?.....)

---------------------

The Question what is Justice...is an interesting one. In the West, the concept of "Justice" is confined to a system understood as retributive justice---where a criminal is (supposed to be) punished to the degree commensurate with the crime. (However, since this seems to vary...the concept of what is "just" is also seems elastic and subjective)

IMO, The Quranic concept of "Justice" is far more wide ranging and wholistic. This is because all Islamic ethico-moral principles are based on Tawheed (Unity). Therefore, "Just dealings" are not just confined to the law between the state and its citizens but permeates all human relationships from those of parents and children to the wider family relationships to neighborhoods and communities to the larger societies and between nations. But it goes further, Justice is also a component in the relationship between humanity(Created) and the Divine (Uncreated).

for example---
Kindness to Parents----Surah 17 verses 23, 24
"Thy Lord hath decreed that ye worship none but Him, and that ye be kind to parents. Whether one or both of them attain old age in thy life, say not to them a word of contempt, nor repel them, but address them in terms of honour.
And, out of kindness, lower to them the wing of humility, and say: "My Lord! bestow on them thy Mercy even as they cherished me in childhood."
Kindness in human relationships----Surah 4 verse 36
"Serve Allah, and join not any partners with Him; and do good- to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbors who are near, neighbors who are strangers, the companion by your side, the wayfarer (ye meet), and what your right hands possess: For Allah loves not the arrogant, the vainglorious;-"
Promise of Divine Justice---Surah 4 verse 124
"If any do deeds of righteousness,--be they male or female--and have faith, they will enter heaven, and not the least injustice will be done to them."

In human relationships, all human beings have an equal right to seek "justice" if an injustice/harm has been done to them. Justice between humanity should be based on two foundations---Equality (equivalent human value) and Compassion/Mercy.

The main purpose of Quranic concept of "Justice" is not punishment---rather, it is to heal the soul (nafs).
Surah 91 verses 7-10
"By the soul, and the proportion and order given to it;
and its inspiration as to wrong and right;
truly they suceed that purifies it,
and they fail that corrupts it."

To this end, Quranic Justice encompasses 3 "systems"
1) Retributive justice---theory of justice that considers punishment, if proportionate, to be the best response to crime.
2) Restorative justice---an approach to justice that focuses on the needs of the victims and the offenders, as well as the involved community, and seeks to repair the harm done.
3) Deterrent justice---the use of punishment as a threat to deter people from offending.

If the primary function of "justice" is to heal the soul, then the primary means of doing so is remorse/repentance from the criminal/sinner and mercy/forgiveness from the victim/injured party. Both retributive justice and restorative justice can accomplish this (if applied correctly) and thus heal the souls of both the criminals and the victims. Deterrent Justice is the prevention of harming the soul in the first place. If people have incentive to refrain from injustice and harm---then moral injury would not occur. (Moral injury = “perpetrating, failing to prevent, bearing witness to, or learning about acts that transgress deeply held moral beliefs and expectations.”)

Thus, (IMO), if one is to generalize and simplify, one might say, Justice is the means to heal moral injuries and/or to restrict their occurrence in order to promote tranquility and peace in all degrees of human relationships.
 
Old 11-15-2014, 03:01 AM
 
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Justice has nothing to do with peace, It can, but does not

It has only to do with enforcing the law, weather it is the common law or imaginary laws of some god.
 
Old 11-16-2014, 01:20 AM
 
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Everything in Islam has to do with achieving peace. Islam=slm=salam=peace.
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