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I lived in North Jersey for several years during the Obama years, and I was always taken aback by how the Italians in the area would constantly brag about how their grandfather or great-grandfather came here from Sicily or Palermo without papers back in the day... The story would continue on about how hard their grandpas worked, and how they chased the American dream and eventually had a good life here..etc.etc..
Even the term WOP when referring to Italians is largely accepted to mean "without papers," further showcasing how so many of them came to this country illegally 60 - 80 years ago....
There were a few Italian guys that I worked with at the time that were always carrying on in this manner. Every time I'd catch these guys during lunch in the breakroom, they were either talking about their Italianess, or these damn illegals. And if they weren't blabbing on about that, the topic would be what a crook Obama was, or that he was a Muslim, a communist, a socialist; he was coming for our guns, the death panels...etc..etc..
Long story short. -- Against my better judgement one day, I get into a bit of a "discussion" with them during lunch. As usual, they're going off about these damn Mexicans and Hondurans.. And I say, "So these south Americans are just like your grandpa Joey who came here decades ago from the old country??"
I'll never forget the expression on their faces. It's as if they never made the connection that many of these south Americans are like the Italians of yesteryear. It goes without saying that they weren't to happy that I compared their grandparents with lowly Mexicans and Hondurans..
I still have one of these guys on my Facebook, and it should come as no surprise that he thinks the election was stolen. His FB is littered with Q'anon madness; trumps going to be reinstated; the election was stolen; Bidens destroying American... ad nauseam...
You conveniently skipped over fact waves of Italian, Irish, German and other European immigrants came to USA back in the day *LEGALLY* via laws and process then in place.
You also conveniently skipped over fact every single one of those persons you slagged could trace their family back to whatever port of entry their ancestors entered USA via ship (New York, Boston, New Orleans, San Francisco, etc...).
In short you and everyone else making same argument, comparing those who walk or otherwise sneak across US borders illegally now versus entered legally decades or hundred years ago need to stop.
I generally agree with BugsyPal but the case is overstated. As pointed out above, there was plenty of immigration "without papers." As a personal example, one set of my great-grandparents arrived from Ukraine (then Czarist Russia) to Montreal, and then presumably via train to Grand Central Terminal, New York City. I have no way of knowing but I strongly doubt Grand Central was a port of entry or that there was one in Rouse's Point, New York. This, remember, was 1896.
The reason I agree with BugsyPal is that the immigration then was not being fueled by the availability of welfare state benefits. Thus, my great-grandfather on that side had to make the plunge into working-class Canada or U.S. without much of a safety net, other than that provided by the Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society. From what I understand most of their help was in getting people educated in English and finding them apartments. Most of the illegals, from what I gather, are here on our arm. As Milton Friedman, noted economist famously said: "It's just obvious you can't have free immigration and a welfare state." See Look to Milton: Open borders and the welfare state. I work hard. With some family help, I paid off a large educational debt. Why should people like myself be the losers?
I generally agree with BugsyPal but the case is overstated. As pointed out above, there was plenty of immigration "without papers." As a personal example, one set of my great-grandparents arrived from Ukraine (then Czarist Russia) to Montreal, and then presumably via train to Grand Central Terminal, New York City. I have no way of knowing but I strongly doubt Grand Central was a port of entry or that there was one in Rouse's Point, New York. This, remember, was 1896.
The reason I agree with BugsyPal is that the immigration then was not being fueled by the availability of welfare state benefits. Thus, my great-grandfather on that side had to make the plunge into working-class Canada or U.S. without much of a safety net, other than that provided by the Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society. From what I understand most of their help was in getting people educated in English and finding them apartments. Most of the illegals, from what I gather, are here on our arm. As Milton Friedman, noted economist famously said: "It's just obvious you can't have free immigration and a welfare state." See Look to Milton: Open borders and the welfare state. I work hard. With some family help, I paid off a large educational debt. Why should people like myself be the losers?
There were no "papers" in 1896, no identifying documents were required to be carried by aliens until the 1924 immigration act was passed. "Without papers" wasn't even a term, green cards didn't exist. Immigration law and rules for admission were very very different before then and things were far more open. As you said yourself above all else is purely guesswork and conjecture.
There were no "papers" in 1896, no identifying documents were required to be carried by aliens until the 1924 immigration act was passed. "Without papers" wasn't even a term, green cards didn't exist. Immigration law and rules for admission were very very different before then and things were far more open. As you said yourself above all else is purely guesswork and conjecture.
And the welfare state still did not exist. That was what created the raft of paperwork required to identify and prove entitlement to those benefits.
The only welfare recipients that move the needle in this country are the 1% and the defense lobby. Learn it, know it, live it. Until that is understood, we will keep getting pissed on and told it's trickle down economics. 50 years of decimated middle class and soon to be a civil war. And the 1% got trillions richer just last year alone while we bumped defense ponzi spending by 10% (is there a war I don't know about?!?). It's amazing to me people cannot wake up Moderator cut: language please and see they've been robbed blind and left to fight over crumbs of debt. But yeah, illegals. lolololololol.
Last edited by nancy thereader; 11-18-2021 at 05:38 AM..
Here's a brief little reading lesson that goes over the complexities of immigration in this country during the late 19th/early 20th century. Start by reading the link below....and then look up more detailed material so you're in the know going forward.
One of the key factors for success of immigrant families in prior decades was assimilation through the public schools. Kids have an amazing capacity to adapt and those first generation children capitalized on the opportunity they were given. It used to take a few generations to become lazy and entitled. Now, who knows?
One of the key factors for success of immigrant families in prior decades was assimilation through the public schools. Kids have an amazing capacity to adapt and those first generation children capitalized on the opportunity they were given. It used to take a few generations to become lazy and entitled. Now, who knows?
Yeabut not every immigrant family sent their kids to pubic school. Evidence of this is by the once huge numbers of Catholic schools all across the country filled often to capacity with students.
Not that the sisters or brothers were any slouches about teaching their charges to be Americans. Didn't matter if the parish was Polish, Irish, German, Italian, or whatever, the religious who staffed/ran schools saw it as their job to ensure students learned and appreciated the new world, not just the old country.
The only welfare recipients that move the needle in this country are the 1% and the defense lobby. Learn it, know it, live it. Until that is understood, we will keep getting pissed on and told it's trickle down economics. 50 years of decimated middle class and soon to be a civil war. And the 1% got trillions richer just last year alone while we bumped defense ponzi spending by 10% (is there a war I don't know about?!?). It's amazing to me people cannot wake up Moderator cut: language please and see they've been robbed blind and left to fight over crumbs of debt. But yeah, illegals. lolololololol.
100%... Keep em stupid and fighting amongst themselves, and they'll never notice that they're being robbed blind, year after year. That has been THE conservative playbook for decades now, and it's worked like a charm. Tell em education is a liberal conspiracy, while simultaneously filling their heads with tin-foil hat garbage, and voila!
We've all stood witness to the results of this campaign: conservatives are constantly brainwashed into believing some boogeyman is behind all their problems. -- There was a war on Christmas, Obama was coming for their guns, the Death Panels, Jade-Helm, Chemtrails, George Soros and the Deep State, Hillary Clinton, pizza parlor pedophile rings, illegal immigrants are stealing all the jobs, illegal immigrants are all on welfare, the Democrats created Covid, the Democrats stole the election, weapons of mass destruction...ad infinitum..
Tin-foil hat madness has gone mainstream...
Last edited by MarcBetrus; 11-23-2021 at 03:19 PM..
One of the key factors for success of immigrant families in prior decades was assimilation through the public schools. Kids have an amazing capacity to adapt and those first generation children capitalized on the opportunity they were given. It used to take a few generations to become lazy and entitled. Now, who knows?
My grandmother, born here to immigrants, spoke only Spanish when she entered public school. She learned English through immersion within the classroom -- no special classes. She would go home and speak English and Spanish, teaching her new found language to her younger siblings and parents. Her English is grammatically superior to that of the aides (3rd, 4th, 5th generation Americans of Hispanic heritage) who care for her and her peers at their assisted living facility. Sad thing is those same aides are also unable to string a proper sentence together in Spanish.
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