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That's what comes of voluntary vaccination in this country. Those who got vaccinated early on did their part. It's those that still care more about their smugly selves than the health of our society and our nation that are dragging us down, kind of like the class clown in high school who draws all the bad attention and gets everyone else in trouble. There should be uniform rules throughout the nation but there is not.
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Originally Posted by OutdoorLover
Yes. The government can't force people, and frankly, even the door to door *offers* of vaccination are I think extremely dangerous to those who might be enlisted - with the angry, paranoid anti-vaccine rhetoric that's been pushed for so long by leading voices on the right, I could imagine people being assaulted and/or shot who knocked on doors.
That said, employers require all kinds of things of employees, and this is not actually unusual in the scope of the ask, what's unusual is the virulence of the opposition and the hysterical views about what vaccination actually is - a serious risk to your life, a conspiracy to establish government mind control over you, etc... Vaccines have been successfully used for over 100 years and have accomplished amazing things for us. These beliefs are absolutely bizarre, but it's not a tiny number of Americans who hold these beliefs, it's 10s of millions. That's what disinformation through mass media can accomplish.
People being opposed to vaccines is not something new or a result of mass media. It is as old as vaccines and taps into something that is even older. Blaming anti-vaccination sentiment on mass media is a bit like explaining human violence on guns. Yes, guns are an extremely efficient way of carrying out violence, but violence predates even human evolution by a considerable margin. Mass media is a tool to help tap into something deeper.
I don't think the general characterization of people opposed to vaccines as "stupid" or "selfish" is helpful, at least if you define helpful as effectively convincing people who aren't vaccinated to be vaccinated. There is a tendency among highly-educated, left-leaning people who live in coastal areas (coastal elitists, to use a different phrase) to lob all the blame at uneducated conservatives. If you look at the groups that have the lowest vaccine rates, you'll find that in addition to a liberal/conservative trend, there are also strong racial trends.
I think it's pretty clear that this vaccination is a test of whether you believe in "the system" and whether "the system" has your best interests at heart. I think that inherent mistrust is something that needs to be improved in the long-term (although I sure don't know how). In the short-term, I think the best way to convince people the vaccine is safe is to a) understand that their concerns are reasonable and b) explain to them, as often and as transparently as possible, that the vaccine is safe and effective.
Yes. The government can't force people, and frankly, even the door to door *offers* of vaccination are I think extremely dangerous to those who might be enlisted - with the angry, paranoid anti-vaccine rhetoric that's been pushed for so long by leading voices on the right, I could imagine people being assaulted and/or shot who knocked on doors.
I know this isn't what you're doing, but I'm hesitant to lump anyone who is reluctant to receive the vaccine as being a paranoid, angry, anti-vaxxer driven by right wing rhetoric. The ~30% of the population who hasn't received their shot represent a pretty diverse mix of people. Some of the worst vaccination rates are in poor, very left-leaning cities. The rate in my neighborhood is pretty dismal, particularly among Latino voters who lean overwhelmingly left. There's mistrust and paranoia among many populations that isn't fueled at all by the anger and vitriol of right-wing rhetoric. Anecdotally, I have several extremely right wing family members and acquaintances and all but one (a CO who has had COVID already) of them have been vaccinated (albeit reluctantly, and while cursing Fauci the entire time). I have several coworkers who lean far to the left who are still holding out because they want to "see what happens." It's the latter group that these door to door campaigns are targeting.
Of course, it only takes one of the paranoid right wing anti-vaxx nuts to shoot a door to door campaigner, but I don't see the risk as being particularly higher than it is for Census workers & political canvassers (both of which regularly feel the wrath of angry residents) and other door to door solicitors.
I know this isn't what you're doing, but I'm hesitant to lump anyone who is reluctant to receive the vaccine as being a paranoid, angry, anti-vaxxer driven by right wing rhetoric. The ~30% of the population who hasn't received their shot represent a pretty diverse mix of people. Some of the worst vaccination rates are in poor, very left-leaning cities. The rate in my neighborhood is pretty dismal, particularly among Latino voters who lean overwhelmingly left. There's mistrust and paranoia among many populations that isn't fueled at all by the anger and vitriol of right-wing rhetoric. Anecdotally, I have several extremely right wing family members and acquaintances and all but one (a CO who has had COVID already) of them have been vaccinated (albeit reluctantly, and while cursing Fauci the entire time). I have several coworkers who lean far to the left who are still holding out because they want to "see what happens." It's the latter group that these door to door campaigns are targeting.
Of course, it only takes one of the paranoid right wing anti-vaxx nuts to shoot a door to door campaigner, but I don't see the risk as being particularly higher than it is for Census workers & political canvassers (both of which regularly feel the wrath of angry residents) and other door to door solicitors.
Even in the lowest vaccination rate places in Massachusetts, the vaccination rate among the highest risk people is pretty high. A place like New Bedford or Springfield has an awful lot of people living paycheck to paycheck and who don’t get sick time pay. If you’re 30 and healthy but struggling to pay the bills, you’re not going to want to risk missing a week of work due to vaccination symptoms. That would be a financial catastrophe. Everyone does their own risk-reward calculation. For many, not getting vaccinated is rational.
People being opposed to vaccines is not something new or a result of mass media. It is as old as vaccines and taps into something that is even older. Blaming anti-vaccination sentiment on mass media is a bit like explaining human violence on guns. Yes, guns are an extremely efficient way of carrying out violence, but violence predates even human evolution by a considerable margin. Mass media is a tool to help tap into something deeper.
I don't think the general characterization of people opposed to vaccines as "stupid" or "selfish" is helpful, at least if you define helpful as effectively convincing people who aren't vaccinated to be vaccinated. There is a tendency among highly-educated, left-leaning people who live in coastal areas (coastal elitists, to use a different phrase) to lob all the blame at uneducated conservatives. If you look at the groups that have the lowest vaccine rates, you'll find that in addition to a liberal/conservative trend, there are also strong racial trends.
I think it's pretty clear that this vaccination is a test of whether you believe in "the system" and whether "the system" has your best interests at heart. I think that inherent mistrust is something that needs to be improved in the long-term (although I sure don't know how). In the short-term, I think the best way to convince people the vaccine is safe is to a) understand that their concerns are reasonable and b) explain to them, as often and as transparently as possible, that the vaccine is safe and effective.
I see things quite differently - you're right that vaccine opposition and outright paranoia are not new. However, it's never been driven by so many leading political voices and it's never been so widely embraced - that's not a coincidence. It's not an exaggeration to call the accusations routinely made by America's leading news commenter completely unsubstantiated and absolutely crazy, and he's one of a large chorus of people pushing the message that vaccines aren't needed, they're dangerous, and it's all an evil conspiracy.
I don't think that you need to just "trust the system" to accept vaccines. You can look at their long record of accomplishments for the human race, and you can trust the science and indeed the results on this one. The data is all there. Most people may not understand how vaccines really work, and it's not that simple in fact, but the results are publicly available and they should be pretty clear to anyone.
Info about breakthrough cases in MA. https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local...cases/2430578/ It looks like if you do test positive as a fully vaxxed person, rates of hospitalization and death are still quite high. Also, wrt to the outbreak in Provincetown, "Town Manager Alex Morse said Tuesday that, "Overwhelmingly, the affected individuals have been fully vaccinated for COVID-19. The moderate intensity of symptoms indicates that the vaccines are working as predicted."
I find the term "moderate intensity of symptoms" interesting...that suggests more than a regular cold or mild illness to me.
I see things quite differently - you're right that vaccine opposition and outright paranoia are not new. However, it's never been driven by so many leading political voices and it's never been so widely embraced - that's not a coincidence. It's not an exaggeration to call the accusations routinely made by America's leading news commenter completely unsubstantiated and absolutely crazy, and he's one of a large chorus of people pushing the message that vaccines aren't needed, they're dangerous, and it's all an evil conspiracy.
I don't think that you need to just "trust the system" to accept vaccines. You can look at their long record of accomplishments for the human race, and you can trust the science and indeed the results on this one. The data is all there. Most people may not understand how vaccines really work, and it's not that simple in fact, but the results are publicly available and they should be pretty clear to anyone.
First, I agree that it doesn’t help that COVID has become politicized. Some of that is genuine, as “science” can say, as best as it can, what risks are, but politicians ultimately decide the acceptable risk
Of course you need to trust “the system”. Who do you think generates and verifies nearly every scientific insight? There are a lot of people who won’t believe something they can’t understand AND verify for themselves. I think the most counter-intuitive thing I have a good idea how to prove unequivocally is that the Earth is curved. Nearly everything more controversial I have to rely on expert data and equipment.
Even on this thread there have been vaccine doubters who immediately question the veracity of the accepted data and provide their own, competing sources. The things you say are absolutely reasonable, but don’t apply to people who have priors to distrust government and science.
Even in the lowest vaccination rate places in Massachusetts, the vaccination rate among the highest risk people is pretty high. A place like New Bedford or Springfield has an awful lot of people living paycheck to paycheck and who don’t get sick time pay. If you’re 30 and healthy but struggling to pay the bills, you’re not going to want to risk missing a week of work due to vaccination symptoms. That would be a financial catastrophe. Everyone does their own risk-reward calculation. For many, not getting vaccinated is rational.
I just felt odd for one day later, wasn't that big of a deal. Also with the child credits and unemployment extensions there are ways to avoid the need to feel bad about taking time. Heck mass gives time to vote.
First, I agree that it doesn’t help that COVID has become politicized. Some of that is genuine, as “science” can say, as best as it can, what risks are, but politicians ultimately decide the acceptable risk
Of course you need to trust “the system”. Who do you think generates and verifies nearly every scientific insight? There are a lot of people who won’t believe something they can’t understand AND verify for themselves. I think the most counter-intuitive thing I have a good idea how to prove unequivocally is that the Earth is curved. Nearly everything more controversial I have to rely on expert data and equipment.
Even on this thread there have been vaccine doubters who immediately question the veracity of the accepted data and provide their own, competing sources. The things you say are absolutely reasonable, but don’t apply to people who have priors to distrust government and science.
So, I may not have full understood your posts before, but you're sounding increasingly reasonable to me LOL. Sorry if I misinterpreted.
But, for anyone reading, you've got to do some critical thinking. If the FDA says or does something that the scientific and medical community disagrees with, you'll hear it. Like recently, the FDA did a questionable approval of an Biogen's Alzheimer's drug, Aduhelm for example. Such an event is very rare, by the way, but the questions and the criticisms have been swift, and persistent, and strong, and it's been coming from countless scientists and doctors all over the country, not just an outlier or two. Yes, there *can* be conspiracies, but you're not going to have a conspiracy with millions of scientists and doctors on board - how would keep them all quiet? what could possible motivate them all? If Covid-19 wasn't a big deal, if the death toll was truly greatly exaggerated, if the vaccines were truly unsafe and having poor efficacy - you'd be hearing that from every corner.
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There should be uniform rules throughout the nation but there is not.
