Are you for or against vaccine passports for massechusetts? Poll (vs., garden)

[Lampert]

Originally Posted by justyouraveragetenant

could you refuse someone because they are hiv positive? no, so you should not be able to refuse someone that is not vaccinated.

An HIV positive person is not contagious through normal day to day interactions, even when they are untreated.
You can refuse to hire an HIV+ person if you can prove that they can pose a risk to others. There are very few jobs where this applies.

A virus that affects the respiratory system is a completely different story and a sick person poses a risk to others all the time.

[tribecavsbrowns]

Originally Posted by Lampert

An HIV positive person is not contagious through normal day to day interactions, even when they are untreated.
You can refuse to hire an HIV+ person if you can prove that they can pose a risk to others. There are very few jobs where this applies.

A virus that affects the respiratory system is a completely different story and a sick person poses a risk to others all the time.

Are these measures targeting sick people? No, they're not.

[lrfox]

Originally Posted by tribecavsbrowns

Increase the capacity then. Find a way. We've had two years of caterwauling about hospital capacity, with federal funds pouring into hospitals throughout. Show some damn results already.

Sure, this pandemic has exposed major issues in our healthcare system that need to be addressed. No argument from me. More capacity would be great, but we're having trouble staffing the units we already have. Regardless, adding capacity in the future does nothing to address the problems we are having right now with unvaccinated people filling ICU beds.

Massachusetts is having more hospital capacity issues this year than this time last year. True or false? If true, how do you address the fact that this is happening this year with so many people vaccinated?

How are you missing this? The vast majority of people with COVID filling hospital beds right now are unvaccinated. That's how address it. It's right there in front of your face. And the solution is right there too - get more people vaccinated and keep them out of the damn hospital.

Also, this variant is 4x more transmissible than Delta and exponentially more than what we were dealing with at this point last year. The fact that hospitalizations and deaths are much lower relative to overall cases is another testament to the efficacy of the vaccines. But the important thing to note, again, is that unvaccinated individuals make up the vast majority of ICU and overall hospital patients.

You talk about "willfully ignoring" "good information" when you're doing exactly that, right now. It is a fact that 90+% of the Massachusetts population has taken at least one of these shots. You can do all the handwaving you want, but at some point you're going to want to address the fact that your population is very, very vaccinated and yet you're still having the same issues over and over again.

There is zero indication that making daily life activities conditional on taking these shots is going to do anything to solve any of these issues.

Again, the numbers tell the whole story. When 90% of the population here has at least one shot yet 85-90% of the COVID patients in the ICU are unvaccinated, it's abundantly clear that the vaccines make a huge difference. And while an improved healthcare system is a must, the immediate need is to ease the burden on our existing system. The easiest way to do that is to vaccinate people and keep them out of the hospital.

[wmass]

The vaccines do not prevent infection and spread - that is a fact that destroys the public health basis for a vaccine passport. That an unvaccinated individual is at a higher risk of severity of infection or death is on them - that is not a PUBLIC health issue, but a risk that an individual assumes with their own health. However, it seems that the vaccinated may actually be at higher risk of omicron: https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/...fficacy-turned

[tribecavsbrowns]

Originally Posted by wmass

The vaccines do not prevent infection and spread - that is a fact that destroys the public health basis for a vaccine passport. That an unvaccinated individual is at a higher risk of severity of infection or death is on them - that is not a PUBLIC health issue, but a risk that an individual assumes with their own health. However, it seems that the vaccinated may actually be at higher risk of omicron: https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/...fficacy-turned

Correct, despite desperate attempts to paint it as a public health issue by selectively picking out statistics about vaccination status of people in the hospital.

By "selectively," I mean there are places in the world where the majority of people in the hospital with Covid are vaccinated for Covid (the UK and Quebec, to name two) but this is generally completely ignored by people pushing the agenda to get everyone vaccinated.

[timberline742]

Originally Posted by tribecavsbrowns

Correct, despite desperate attempts to paint it as a public health issue by selectively picking out statistics about vaccination status of people in the hospital.

By "selectively," I mean there are places in the world where the majority of people in the hospital with Covid are vaccinated for Covid (the UK and Quebec, to name two) but this is generally completely ignored by people pushing the agenda to get everyone vaccinated.

Where are you getting this junk? In Quebec, about 10% of adults aren't fully vaccinated. About 90% of the people in ICUs are unvaccinated (per Health Minister Dube).

And THINK PEOPLE.

If it was a situation where 51% of the people in the hospital were vaccinated, but 90% of the population is vaccinated, that is empirically showing the positive effects of the vaccine. Those aren't the numbers out there, but if you were correct in your claim, it doesn't support your position, at all.

Lack of damn critical thinking skills are abounding.

[Williepaws]

Originally Posted by GeoffD

https://www.masslive.com/coronavirus...outputType=amp

From the first thing a quick Google turned up for a citation: Three weeks ago information. Must be fake news since it doesn’t align with the “but mah rights” narrative.



Again, it’s your civic duty to get vaccinated to ease the meltdown in the hospitals. Anyone not vaccinating is incredibly selfish.

I have no civic duty to make myself sick by getting your crappy vaccines! you believe in them. go for it! your meltdown in hospitals isnt about covid, its about hospital policies and mgt practices. After spending 2 months sitting with a family member in a Ma. hospital, you get to watch what really happens. it aint pretty and the hospitals have no one to blame but themselves. It aint covid causing these problems.

[htfdcolt]

Originally Posted by wmass

The vaccines do not prevent infection and spread - that is a fact that destroys the public health basis for a vaccine passport. That an unvaccinated individual is at a higher risk of severity of infection or death is on them - that is not a PUBLIC health issue, but a risk that an individual assumes with their own health. However, it seems that the vaccinated may actually be at higher risk of omicron: https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/...fficacy-turned

Wrong. This is not a binary--does it spread or does it not spread. The viral loading of those who are vaccinated and get exposed *is* much lower than for an unvaxxed person, and it absolutely lowers the probability of them spreading to others.

Not sure why there is such cognitive dissonance on this issue. Clear analogy--you can freely send your kid to school, without fear of them catching measles. Why? Because you know that every other student has been vaccinated against it before they could enroll. When a business requires a Covid vaccine passport, you're basically replicating that environment inside the business. And guess what, it works. People don't get severely ill even if they were to be exposed in that kind of environment.

Why are you making Covid out to be so different than all these other infectious diseases?

[Williepaws]

Originally Posted by htfdcolt

Wrong. This is not a binary--does it spread or does it not spread. The viral loading of those who are vaccinated and get exposed *is* much lower than for an unvaxxed person, and it absolutely lowers the probability of them spreading to others.

Not sure why there is such cognitive dissonance on this issue. Clear analogy--you can freely send your kid to school, without fear of them catching measles. Why? Because you know that every other student has been vaccinated against it before they could enroll. When a business requires a Covid vaccine passport, you're basically replicating that environment inside the business. And guess what, it works. People don't get severely ill even if they were to be exposed in that kind of environment.

Why are you making Covid out to be so different than all these other infectious diseases?

that might be true if the vaccinated covid positive folks couldnt spread the disease! But they can and do! and some still die from the disease! This isnt the measles vaccine. you dont need that vaccine every 5 months or so and the Netherlands is saying 6 boosters might be necessary to slow covid down.

[timberline742]

Originally Posted by Williepaws

that might be true if the vaccinated covid positive folks couldnt spread the disease! But they can and do! .

At far far lower rates. That is what is important.

I have no idea why people gloss over that incredibly important detail.